T30/T48/T60

[Marflinger]

To clean up a build thread, here the new one:

Build thread is found here: viewtopic.php?t=26861 but is about DR250s

Not sure if that works, but can posts be moved or crosslinked inbetween threads?

My initial thoughts over there were the following, copied together:

Usecase:

Only dj, rather experimental subgenres from psytrance and dnb/breakcore...no live band

Only outdoor (freefield, forest usually), target size between 500 and 800 ppl.

I favour to set pa in the front and dj in foh-position (so not between the stacks)
Stacks usually around 16-20 meters apart, toed in.

Idea in my mind was to keep it upscaleable, so be prepared to cater bigger versions by extending the system. Same sound and setting, just bigger pax.

I asked, how close 4 t30 coupled with v-plate come to 4 t60 stacked just straight, because there are no charts on the plated stack of four.

There is a comparison, when in stacks of 4 or more the longer horn will have an advantage. But the plate makes the path of the t30 longer as well, i just want to figure if that adds up and if so to what.

So lets say, one t30 compared to one t60 equals a 1:2 ratio.
4 t30 and 4 t60 stacked straight should benefit from the same effect each, so still 1:2 ratio.
4 t30 with a longer path by the v-plate vs 4 t60 stacked straight equal to what?
1,2:2? 1,5:2? 1,8:2?
All i could find about that is the mentioned 4db increased sensitivity.

This will probably never reach the t60, which isn't even the goal.
But as stated somewhere, the lower frequency of the t60 is mostly not used, and party ppl aren't used to that frequencies either bc most systems just don't go there. so not sure if there is a need for the t60.
But i don't want to regret it later, as building takes time.

rig of 2 dr250 each side, done with either 4 of t30 or 4 of t60 (1 top for 2 subs) will play the music. When avoidable, i will not go for the t60 due to the storage volume doubled for them.

The graphs don't tell me the answer, i'm looking for somebody who had both scenarios playing and shares the experienced difference between them.
The t30 would be super easy to store, and i could build double the amount of cabs within the same storage space. And by being half the size of the t60, they are better to lift around as well...

This might be an answer for you. I thought that for the T30, the V-plate only 2db (3db for T39 and T48). So, if one would add 2db to the red trace, the difference is very little. These two cabs shown are half the width and half the drivers as per your plan so it should give a fair representation of the differences.

Only dj, rather experimental subgenres from psytrance and dnb/breakcore...no live band....

If you're looking for maximum output outdoor, in the frequencies that can be reasonably be reproduced, Titan is the only way to go. If you build full width (36") 15" loaded T48's you would be WAY ahead of the options you've currently considered. The bottom frequencies the Tuba 60 offers are really only available indoors. Outdoors, to hit the bottom frequency a T60 offers, look at building four times the cab count you're already looking at building.

Outdoors, two stacks of 4 full width (36") T48's will way outperform two stacks of 4 T60's (or 4 double 10 loaded T30's).

Outdoors, eight full width T48's would absolutely rock your world and put you in "god" status compared other options.

Ask around .Read T48 reviews.

Indoors, T60's are magic. T30's still pale in comparison to T48.

All that said, you won't be disappointed with any of the options. The T48 will just be the best tool for the job.

Outdoors, T48 is a different animal.

That said, if I needed or wanted (well... I do want it. But...) the bottom frequency the T60 offers, I would only consider building the 20" wide, single 15" loaded version for it's highly valuable bottom end sensitivity. Absolutely amazing.

There's a lot of "behind the scenes knowledge" this is based on, that I don't have the time to dive into. But, the guys who know will agree.

Keryn, (he) has both. If (he) doesn't agree (please say so), I'm not offended in the least. Take firsthand experience over number crunching.

But... Numbers don't lie. Numbers have no bias.

Only outdoor (freefield, forest usually), target size between 500 and 800 ppl.

If you're looking for maximum output outdoor, in the frequencies that can be reasonably be reproduced, Titan is the only way to go.

Outdoors, eight full width T48's would absolutely rock your world and put you in "god" status compared other options.

100%

This might be an answer for you. I thought that for the T30, the V-plate only 2db (3db for T39 and T48). So, if one would add 2db to the red trace, the difference is very little. These two cabs shown are half the width and half the drivers as per your plan so it should give a fair representation of the differences.

The 4db is from the plans, but stated there as the "lower end" (so rather tilt then shift up, but idk where. Relevant only below 80hz)
Even if we assume 2db, adding up together with a flatter response due to stacking (as your chart is single ten an single twelve, it's eight times that per side) it should be pretty close. Below 80hz the t60 rides with a distance of ~5db, assuming the 2db v-plate benefit it would shrink to 3db.

This guessing around was it, what led me to the idea of maybe t30 with a v-plate would be sufficient, as the previously introduced ratio would be somewhat halved (1:2 without plates, 1,5:2 with plate)

Thank you for that comparing chart, makes it visible way better.

Titan is the only way to go

And why should that be the case?

Outdoors, you're loocking at 40Hz+ (actually higher than that, but...)

And again, why should THIS be the case?
Curious, bc i've had 30hz outdoors crunching my stomach and i loved it. I don'r see why the tubas, no matter which, shouldn't do that outdoors.
I'm familiar with room modes and the boundary effects, but way before that the output should be playing below 40 to trigger the room as intended and ideally benefit from the boundarys.

Outdoors, two stacks of 4 full width (36") T48's will way outperform two stacks of 4 T60's (or 4 double 10 loaded T30's)

outperform in terms of? Spl below 80hz? Above? Db per watt input?

But... Numbers don't lie. Numbers have no bias.

Do you have those numbers handy, or can point me to the place where i can find them? Bc the numbers i found walk in other directions...

But this is the point of my questioning, i try to decide on numbers or at least approximations and want to avoid religious beliefs and similar.

Only outdoor (freefield, forest usually), target size between 500 and 800 ppl.

If you're looking for maximum output outdoor, in the frequencies that can be reasonably be reproduced, Titan is the only way to go.

Outdoors, eight full width T48's would absolutely rock your world and put you in "god" status compared other options.

100%

Again, why?

Maybe i will seperate that discussion into its own thread as this is starting to extend, and this is somehow annoying for someone to read this in the future.

Two more thoughts on the subwoofer-situation:

Re-read the plans, T30 indeed says 4db increased sensititvity coupling two cabs (similar to add a third cab).
So the true comparison would be 4 T60 vs 6 T30 probably? Or 4 T60 vs 5 T30?

Another thought of mine is the driver, which is always somehow ignored. But there are huge diffferences between the available ones, even between the recommended ones.
As stated before, for instance the recommended LaVoce has around double the Xmax from the Eminence-Variant in the ten inch version.
To keep it simple, i assumed all cabs with the most Xmax available, but i don't know anything about the used drivers in comparisons like "T48 will outperform anything"
Same as the driver, in the comparing thoughts the width the cab is built in also isn't factored in (in terms of keeps variantion range wide open).


Double twelve T48 could be built with a volume of 24 by 30 by 48 inches. Somewhat similar to the Volume of a T60, so the comparison would be 4 T60 vs 4 T48 +3db vs 4 T30 +4db.

And for my other question, if the T30 would improve by adding more Horn:


This is the sketch i promised:

Sure with bracing, but if that would increase the output this would happen at around zero needed storage volume as they can be stored in a flat pack.

And the "big" top/bottom could be clamped on four T30 for transport to have one cart of 2 by 2 T30, secured together by the big plates. This would be exactly one stack, 4 T30s with the top/bottom on the sides and the adittional bracing and 30 inch wide sidewalls somehow seperated.

Have to extend that even further, sorry for spamming.

Just for the ten inch ones in the T30:
The one shown in the graph T30 vs T60 (S2010) has an Xmax of 4mm, the highest i could find is the LaVoce SSF102.50L with 11,5mm Xmax.
This results in a Vd of 140cc on the 2010 vs 417cc on the LaVoce. This isn't just somehow ignoreable variance i guess. Both ten inch drivers, more than double the Vd which is the limiting point of SPL if i get that correct.
Yet alone the power rating, 150/300W on the Eminence 2010, and 400/800 watt on the competitor.

So it's hard to say, what a ten inch cab will do without knowing anything about the driver inside.

The recommended 15s for the titan48 for instance:
LaVoce WXF with 444cc and the Eminence 3015LF with 846cc. Again half the Vd, just the other way around.
And from the twelves:
LaVoce SSF 122.50L with a Vd of 609cc vs prv recommended with 624cc.

Just two of the twelves from the T60:
LaVoce SSF 122.50L with a Vd of 609cc vs the Lab12 with 659cc and the prv recommended with 624cc.
Way closer range.
and the 15" there:
WAF154.01 with 855cc vs. LAB15 with 971cc.

So to be maxed out in all Variants, and stay within the limits of handling (width to keep around 30"), the comparison would need to be

4* T30, Vd of 834cc per cab (dual 10" LaVoce, more than one 12")

4*T60, Vd of 1318cc per cab (dual Lab12, more than one 15")

4*T48, Vd of 1248cc per cab (Dual 12" loaded, 30" wide)
4*T48, Vd of 1692cc per cab (Dual 3015 loaded, therefore 35" wide)

Which is before V-Plating, which would affect the T30 and the T48. (Presumeably the T30 more, but lets factor that difference out)
And if i keep the T48 within the 30" limit, it reduces to double 12" drivers, so 1248cc Vd (loaded double 12")


Jumping point for me is the part, that the T30-Variant uses just half the space.
To get a comparison by the needed Volume, i could build double amount of T30 within the same storage room and will have a similar Vd compared to the T48 (exceeding the 30"wide T48), even exceed the T60.

BUT
This is just one number, which ignores the frequencie response and everything else.
And then there are other factors, like material cost and even the drivers. The bigger drivers are around three times the small ones. And here the comparison is between 10", 12" and 15" Drivers, which is somehow not apples for apples.
As i can get two of the 10" for 2/3 of the price of one 15", even doubling the amount of T30s would still be cheaper (ignoring the wood, but will be similar i think)


...all of this is, why i stumble upon simplified statements like "T48 will be the best".
I just want to get it right, if they are thats super and I'm happy to go for them. But i don't see that to be honest.