BillFitzmaurice.info

Thank you booth for the responses.

I am confused about Bill's answer. I understand it isn't directional, but the magnitude will be much higher at or within a meter of the wall than 3 - 6 meters away right? Won't folks feel that? I am imagining that maybe the crossover should be set differently for the right channel top than the left? Or no? Only asking to learn! I greatly appreciate your responses.

Grant, do you know a rule of thumb for setting height? We are very stubborn about the sweet-spot being up close and personal with the DJ. It is a requirement. It is where we personally like to hang out and I can't stand feeling the direct energy flying right over my head. We set up in stereo too, which I know can be unique. We love it. Ever since we bought the Danley's we have been on cloud 9, but I am open to making it even better. They are for sure capable of putting out a lot more level, I'm just unsure how to handle height/distance optimization when wanting a sweet-spot within a 2 meter radius of that booth structure.

The sketch is based on standard scaffold that is 5' high + ~ 9-18" additional with 24" leveling feet. I assumed I'd have to block up the Danley's some, but maybe an entire additional Scaffold level could help?? Then I'm tilting them down quite a bit.

We looked at renting material lifts and they aren't too expensive, but with the 2 day event.. its really 4 days of load in, run, and load out. At that point considering we want to solve the DJ Booth problem to.. the cheap scaffold seemed like a nice creative option.

I forgot to address the white/mesh ends of the walls. Those represent the vertical video we will be projecting. They are indeed solid brick. For reference the buildings are estimated to be 35' tall and about 100' in length. In the image the center of the Sub Cube is about 20' from the end of the building. Position is based on expected turn out and audience flow.

Nice setup! A couple things I might point out/ask: Do you really need the 6db of gain from boundary loading? I know you gain more than just boundary loading by eliminating cancelations. Some of the compromises by having them against the wall include the layout, esthetic and the ability of people to be up close the T60's beautiful output. I always strive for frequency response/level over the entire dance area but sometimes you have to pick what the best thing for the people that care/matter the most. I mentioned on one of your posts a couple years ago is to have the subs on dollys so you can shift them around, measure or use your ears on the music content you desire. Depending on genre of EDM you know immediately if the bass line is lacking due to cancelations. You can somewhat simulate frequency responses with boundary's with REW or at least it helps understand the affect it has. There might be more free programs as well. Safest bet is to wall load but it wouldn't hurt to try center them.

mj90210 wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 11:48 am Do you really need the 6db of gain from boundary loading? .

Considering the loss of at least 6dB from being outdoors it's a safe bet.

5meohd wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 8:51 am Grant, do you know a rule of thumb for setting height? We are very stubborn about the sweet-spot being up close and personal with the DJ. It is a requirement. It is where we personally like to hang out and I can't stand feeling the direct energy flying right over my head. We set up in stereo too, which I know can be unique. We love it. Ever since we bought the Danley's we have been on cloud 9, but I am open to making it even better. They are for sure capable of putting out a lot more level, I'm just unsure how to handle height/distance optimization when wanting a sweet-spot within a 2 meter radius of that booth structure.

The sketch is based on standard scaffold that is 5' high + ~ 9-18" additional with 24" leveling feet. I assumed I'd have to block up the Danley's some, but maybe an entire additional Scaffold level could help?? Then I'm tilting them down quite a bit.

We looked at renting material lifts and they aren't too expensive, but with the 2 day event.. its really 4 days of load in, run, and load out. At that point considering we want to solve the DJ Booth problem to.. the cheap scaffold seemed like a nice creative option.

It's a good thing that those areas are screens. No loss of boundary is a win.

Rule of thumb for mains height? Not really per se.
Having said that, unlike so many things in sound that people do, there's a genuine reason that so many people aim their mains at head height or slightly above.
As frequency in Hz rises, wavelength decreases. Aiming mains down means more HF energy is lost at a faster rate. It also raises the rate of early reflections off the floor. That could be a good thing, but it's more often than not, a bad thing.

You should be able to get vertical and horizontal coverage angles (and what is on axis and off axis in both planes) from Danley, or a Danley community if there's such a thing.
It's very handy information to have.

So, let's try and explain the significance in terms of this gig (and it would seem, most of your gigs).
You want a sweet spot around 2m from the booth area for, presumably, a select clientele. OK.
So you aim the mains down to that area. Sounds great there all of a sudden, sounds worse further away.
Those that aren't in the created sweet spot are getting off axis response directly, or early reflections off the floor. The early reflections may appear slightly delayed. The more people in the room, the worse it all gets. Something will seem a little "off" in that.

You don't want people thinking it wasn't that good sound wise where they were standing (especially if they're paying customers).
So, setting up generally is about trying to get better sound to the most people.

How can you address this?
Well, it's one or the other in this case. Sweet spot for a few, or better coverage for all.
Adding an additional pair of mains pointing out at or above head height would allow the sweet spot and overall coverage.

On a side note, I see from your rendering that the mains look to be toed in.
That will also mean any customers inline with the right sided cab, and to the right of the that cab will only be getting off axis response as well.

Stereo subs is a waste of time. Being omnidirectional there's often no content in the sub frequency region that helps create a stereo image. Especially when sub cabs are grouped together.
Stereo imaging within itself is only good for about 13 feet, and depends on where you are. It would be most noticeable in the sweet spot.
It's not a reason as such to not use stereo, more that stereo imaging has its own limitations, and you need to be aware of them.

A final offering. Setting up for sound is often about compromise. Walk the room when you've set up as planned. You will immediately see what I mean.

Apologies for the essay...

Essays are fine.

I would never run stereo subs.

Cool.
So that's the design brief.
What you need to see if you can find now is if the design brief has been met (by measurements) post construction.

It's a bit odd. I would have thought 90 horizontal x 60 vertical would suit most needs better, rather than the 60 x 90 in the design brief.
Your sweet spot and coverage would be much wider and greater if it was.
Pointless firing so much energy at the floor and ceiling...

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 1:01 pm Considering the loss of at least 6dB from being outdoors it's a safe bet.

What are the height/width requirements of the boundary to provide boundary loading for a T60. I forget, is it one wavelength?

For full loading it's one wavelength.

How tall is that wall?

Grant Bunter wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 8:56 pm Cool.
So that's the design brief.
What you need to see if you can find now is if the design brief has been met (by measurements) post construction.

It's a bit odd. I would have thought 90 horizontal x 60 vertical would suit most needs better, rather than the 60 x 90 in the design brief.
Your sweet spot and coverage would be much wider and greater if it was.
Pointless firing so much energy at the floor and ceiling...

Interesting points. The silly thing is that we listened to about 7 other models of Danley at a dealership, comparing them to RCF and our BFM Jack 10s. We simply loved everything we heard from Danley, but the SH69 weren't one of them. Then I just ended up buying these used because they were a great "deal".

I think they can run just fine mounted the other direction.I do like the idea of keeping energy off of the walls, just like the ceiling. So maybe the intent is for them to be used outdoors where a crowd of people is absorbing and diffusing the floor bounce and the sky is handling the rest

In all seriousness though, do you think we should actually stand them on end for this outdoor show? "super-stereo"

I did find a thread with some measurements, not sure where the member found them though: https://forums.prosoundweb.com/index.ph ... 177.0.html

Seth wrote: ↑Thu May 04, 2023 9:37 pm How tall is that wall?

I am going to measure it next Thursday. My estimate +/- 8' is 100' x 35'.

Wow. I'm realizing I'm not even sure which direction is which with these things. I always assumed when the were laying down.. horizontally.. that was the wider coverage. Now I'm second guessing that.

Way down the bottom of this page:
https://www.danleysoundlabs.com/products/sh69/

there is a mounting bracket.

The pic, with the bracket on the cab, suggests the longest measurement is horizontal to the floor. For me, that's the 60 degrees...

Yeah. Fair point. The bracket is explicitly stated to mount vertically or horizontally though, so I'm still unsure of that being a definitive answer. I will ask Ivan.