Ballroom sound

[shane2943]

Hey everyone!

My wife and I dance west coast swing and our local ballroom needs a lot of help in the audio department. This ballroom hosts different types of dance including ballroom, salsa, WCS, east coast swing, and sometimes live music and dinner theater as well. WCS music is basically anything, but mostly it's modern pop, hiphop, RnB, some jazz, some blues, and a little bit of country.

The main dance floor is roughly 50' x 55' with space around 3 of the sides. The wall with the mirrors has a hallway behind it and does not extend to the ceiling.

On a busy night, the main floor can hold I'd say around 50-60 people at a time.

Here's some shots of the main ballroom:

The current sound comes from two tower speakers at either corner of the floor (one can be seen in the images, the other is next to the piano) and a third speaker (Behringer Eurolive B215A) sitting on top of the wall to the left of the floor (kind of covers the back left of the floor). The tower speakers are QSC KW153s.

As you can imagine, the sound is....well....pretty bad. Muddy, muffled, hard to hear even when the sound is cranked up pretty loud (not club volume, but dance party volume).

I'd like to help this place out, especially since they operate as a non-profit so they don't have much in the way of disposable cashflow.

My immediate idea is to fly 4 Jack 115L at each corner of the dance floor. Would that be enough? Is it a terrible idea?

Thanks in advance for any input. You guys are far smarter than I am!

(And yes, whatever BFM designs I build for them I will purchase the plans for those)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

They need line sources, like TLAH Pro, or a large number of SLA Pro. For something resembling decent sound they need to make the ceiling non-reflective. There's no inexpensive way of doing that.

[shane2943]

Thanks Bill. What would a large number of SLA Pros be? I've thought about having two TLAHs where the towers are now (mounted to the wall as high as possible), or, having 6-8 SLA Pros surrounding the dance floor, but then reconsidered in my mind due to cost and simplicity. There doesn't seem to be a great place for subs to go either.

And I agree on the ceiling, but I can definitely say that wont happen.

[Bruce Weldy]

The first thing to do is configure that QSC correctly.

Take it off the Deep setting and set it to normal.
Set the input to line - NOT Mic. It's currently set to Mic - that overdrives the input stage if you are sending a line level signal. In fact, don't use the first input at all - go to the second one. It can only be run as LINE - that way, nobody can screw it up.
Turn off the Vocal Boost switch and put it at Normal.

That speaker has been set up totally wrong. I see this all the time with those QSC boxes - too many options and people always choose the wrong ones.

Those are good boxes and should sound great in that room. What are you using for a mixer? Is there any EQ?

When you use the Deep setting, that will engage a limiter to keep from blowing the woofer with the extra bass.....and with the input running hot on the Mic setting and the Vocal Boost engaged. You've introduced a distorted signal running through an internal EQ that engages a midrange bump for speech and limited the bottom end with the Deep switch. Fix those three settings and just turn up the mixer some.....and use an EQ to clean it up.

If you don't understand these fundamentals, building new boxes isn't going to solve the long term issues. See if you can get those boxes sounding good, then address a new system.

[shane2943]

Noted! Next time I'm there, I'll take a look at those towers. They have a mixer but I doubt they have an EQ. I'll look though and report back.

One issue with the towers that is causing a lot of the mud is that they're on the floor. So when people are dancing, bodies get in the way of the sound unless you're dancing in the "front row".

[Bruce Weldy]

Noted! Next time I'm there, I'll take a look at those towers. They have a mixer but I doubt they have an EQ. I'll look though and report back.

One issue with the towers that is causing a lot of the mud is that they're on the floor. So when people are dancing, bodies get in the way of the sound unless you're dancing in the "front row".

Certainly, getting 'em up in the air will help the clarity. The trade off will be losing some bottom end when you take away the boundary loading. If you have a sub, add that to the mix and put the 153s on stands. If you build any boxes, you're going to need some subs regardless.

[shane2943]

Good point. Currently, the bass in the room is mostly adequate as far as volume. Doesn't need to be "feel it in the guts" bass. It's just muddy, which setting up the towers correctly and applying some EQ may help with as you mentioned.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Six to eight SLA Pro is preferable to two TLAH. Line arrays will make things better, but they can't work miracles. Treatment of the ceiling is a must if they don't want it to be an echo chamber. I wouldn't even consider subs without it.

[Seth]

I'm in agreement about getting the speakers on stands and set properly before making any other improvement choices. At least the ceiling is corrugated, which is way better than a flat ceiling. Still not ideal. It appears the room is carpeted, other than the dancefloor. Bodies in the room and a full dancefloor should give the space a fighting chance at achieving "acceptable" sound quality.

A common misconception about non-profits is that they have little to no disposable cashflow. Technically speaking, all of their cashflow is disposable. I don't want to dissuade you from being a contributor . But, if the space needs room treatments and electronics, don't be afraid to ask or make specific requests. A consultation with an Acoustician could be money well spent for a venue like that. That's certainly not the Elks Lodge or Knights Of Columbus hall. It looks like a nice modern building, and being a venue dedicate to dance, it only makes sense that they have the sound system and sound quality up to a reasonably high, professional level standard.

Here's a video of SLA Pros, 4x6 stacked on a 2x6, on stands for a dance competition in a room that is similar to yours. Posted by one of our past users here, Whines, in his thread, "T39's and SLA pros in San Antonio".

[shane2943]

Thank you Seth & Bill!

When the room is filled with people, the echo surprisingly isn't that bad. I think most of the mud, as others have mentioned, is coming from the towers being on the floor and therefore blocked by bodies + not being set up correctly + lack of EQ + having the extra Eurolive speaker probably introducing cancellations (it's being used as an attempt to fill in sound at the rear of the dance floor). I'll see about getting the towers up off the floor, with the knowledge that this will reduce some of the low end.

As far as EQ, what you y'all recommend as a make/model to go with?

[Bruce Weldy]

Thank you Seth & Bill!

When the room is filled with people, the echo surprisingly isn't that bad. I think most of the mud, as others have mentioned, is coming from the towers being on the floor and therefore blocked by bodies + not being set up correctly + lack of EQ + having the extra Eurolive speaker probably introducing cancellations (it's being used as an attempt to fill in sound at the rear of the dance floor). I'll see about getting the towers up off the floor, with the knowledge that this will reduce some of the low end.

As far as EQ, what you y'all recommend as a make/model to go with?

If you are planning down the road to build a system or add subs, then get a Driverack - it will handle crossover, EQ, limiting, etc.

For now, pretty much anything will get you going. Even a used dual 15 band of any brand will have an impact.

Run us through the whole equipment chain. Mixer model, amp models, any other gear that's in the signal path.

[shane2943]

Thank you Bruce.

The signal chain is really simple: laptops and mics (no EQ) connected to a beat up Yamaha MG16XU. All speakers are powered so no separate amps. Speakers are connected to the stereo LR outputs on the board. Here's an image:

[Bruce Weldy]

YIKES!!!! Gain structure!

Channel faders hammered and the Master fader barely cracked open.

Pull those faders down, turn the gains all the way down, put the Master Fader at -5 below unity. Then bring the channel faders up to about -5 below unity. Now, slowly turn up the gain on the channels to the volume you need. If a channel is peaking, then you may have to increase the fader and turn down the gain.

With good metering, you'd run the gains up to just below clipping, then add the fader - but, with only a clip light and making sure you have some headroom, I'd go with the fader first approach. Right now, you're driving the channels hard and barely letting anything out through the master fader.

Think of it like running cows through a bunch of pens, one leading to the other. If you close the last gate on the last pen to where it's just barely open and open all the ones before it all the way, the final gate gets too many cows jammed up trying to get out, creating distortion. But, if you open up the last gate (master fader) and the gate before that (channel fader) - then the cows you let in (gain knob), can run freely through the gates with no distortion.

That's a fine mixer and should do everything you need. I can't see the EQ on the individual channels, but that could be where some of the mud is. Start with the EQ controls at noon.

That mixer has sweepable mids - so, the two middle knobs control that. turn the bottom knob of the two (gain/cut) to about 9 o'clock. That means you are going to turn down some some frequencies. Now slowly turn the top knob (to the left most likely to get rid of the mud) and listen as you sweep the frequencies looking for the offending one. Once you find it, you bo back to the bottom knob and take more out or put a little back in depending on what it needs. I'm betting that somewhere around the 100-250hz mark is where you are going to find nirvana.

Remember, setting EQ is about getting rid of what sounds bad, not adding other frequencies trying to cover up the bad. In other words, if the sound is muddy - don't turn up the highs.....find the mud and get rid of that. That's what those sweepable mids let you do. Then you can season to taste with a little highs or lows, up or down as needed.

If you get proficient at the EQ on the channels and that doesn't get it done - then look into an outboard EQ. Based on the what I'm seeing in the fader setup - I would bet that the EQ is probably just as messy. Master the basics first before adding another layer of complexity.

If you are there working on it and need help, call me. You can DM me for my contact info.

[shane2943]

GREAT INFO! Thank you sir! I understood all of it and now just need to work with them on a time to swing by when they're not having lessons or classes.

I appreciate your help for sure!

[Seth]

Tell me you're from Texas, without telling me you're from Texas.

Think of it like running cows through a bunch of pens...

Jokes aside, great post Bruce!