4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

Post your gigs here and showcase your BF speakers. Be sure to tell us what you've got.
Post Reply
Message
Author
Pryor
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:01 pm

4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#1 Post by Pryor »

Greetings! First time posting, but I got a ton of answers checking out previous threads on the forum! Thanks everybody! And thanks Bill for designing some awesome speakers! I build guitar and bass speakers for a living, but when asked to build some PA cabs for my good buddies at What’s Left Records here in Colorado Springs, I figured going with some BFM cabs would be the way to go with everything I’ve heard about them. We weren’t disappointed! These are a perfect match for a record store that has super loud shows as well! Hi fidelity enough for playing records and sound amazing with live music! I know our sub placement isn’t best, but it’s what we could do with the room. Anyway, cheers and I hope y’all like our style on these amazing BFMs!
Attachments
IMG_2935.jpeg
IMG_2934.jpeg
IMG_2933.jpeg
IMG_2931.jpeg
IMG_2929.jpeg

User avatar
Tom Smit
Posts: 7447
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:24 pm
Location: Sarnia, Ont. Canada

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#2 Post by Tom Smit »

Hi Pryor! Welcome to the forum!
Nice looking cabs you have there. Good to hear that the SQ and performance are appreciated.
TomS

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#3 Post by Grant Bunter »

I'm totally cringing about the flying of the cabs.
It is not the way to do it.

Unfortunately, that overshadows what otherwise looks like an excellent build to me...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28593
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#4 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

Grant Bunter wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:45 am I'm totally cringing about the flying of the cabs.
It is not the way to do it.
Agreed.

Rich4349
Posts: 855
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:18 am
Location: Kankakee, IL

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#5 Post by Rich4349 »

Grant Bunter wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 1:45 am I'm totally cringing about the flying of the cabs.
It is not the way to do it.
I'm glad I wasn't the first or only one to think so. At those chain angles, each chain is supporting nearly the full weight of the cabs, not 1/4.

Was this install designed by an engineer?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_death_triangle
2 DR250s, 2 27" Lab15 T-60s, 2 30" Neo Titan 39s, 1 Autotuba...and looking for more!

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28593
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#6 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

The only engineer that matters in this case is me. The DRs aren't designed to handle the weight of being hung. To safely hang them requires an external rigging that puts the load on the rigging, not the cabs.

rotebass
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#7 Post by rotebass »

Just stack them on the subs, won't lose much height in the process.

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28593
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#8 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

rotebass wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:37 pm Just stack them on the subs,
Blasphemy. The sub placement as it stands is poor. They should be spread wider, and pushed back further, making them tight to the side walls and as close as possible to the rear wall. The only time mains should be stacked above subs is when there are no boundaries, which means outdoors.

rotebass
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:12 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#9 Post by rotebass »

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:55 am
rotebass wrote: Mon Oct 02, 2023 9:37 pm Just stack them on the subs,
Blasphemy. The sub placement as it stands is poor. They should be spread wider, and pushed back further, making them tight to the side walls and as close as possible to the rear wall. The only time mains should be stacked above subs is when there are no boundaries, which means outdoors.
Absolutely, but OP already states they are compromising on sub positioning.

Given only two options, I'd like see a PA deployed safely but wrong, rather than unsafely AND wrong.

User avatar
Seth
Posts: 2702
Joined: Thu Sep 10, 2009 8:06 pm
Location: Sacramento, California, USA
Contact:

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#10 Post by Seth »

Hey Prior, welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your success.

I've gotta say, your cab building experience really shows through in your execution of these cabs. Well done my friend. :thumbsup: And, while it's difficult to see the full venue in the photos shown, it seems you brought military grade missiles to a knife fight. Waaaay overkill for the space. If they like it loud, you sir have certainly fulfilled upon their desires and expectations.

Even though I would personally do all my cabs in Duratex, I really like the blue-ish stain, dark seams, and what looks to be a low shine/matte polyurethane topcoat. It really makes a lot of sense for the particular venue and install. Very classy. And, interesting choice to leave the top and bottom of the butt cheeks open and unfilled. I think that's a good move too, if for no other reason than simply to display and/or reveal one of the more interesting parts of the DR280 cab's design. Everything looks like a high quality build and finish, through and through. The Melded Array's look like they came out really really well too. And props for logos on the T48's. It's a nice touch that you added your own and also included the "bf" logo.
Screenshot (272).png
I'm sorry the thread has been mostly critical up to this point. However, it's not without reason. It's a good thing that they're low enough that no one can walk under them. Personally, if it were me, I would have squares of angle iron welded up that the bottom speaker can sit on and register into, and run 4 pieces of all-thread straight up to the ceiling into some steel 1x1 that bridges the gap between the ceilings joists. That way, the design and integrity of the speaker cab isn't responsible for any hanging load whatsoever. The cabs will be supported from below, as they were designed to be used. Plus, the angle iron, all-thread, and 1x1 can be painted to blend in more with the rest of the install. That said, ultimately, if the cabs end up falling or otherwise injuring someone due to the installation method (any installation method), the companies insurance will likely not assume liability unless the installation method has been signed off by an appropriate civil engineer. Not a huge big deal, but a possible medical and legal nightmare if there's ever an issue.

If the bass response is even enough throughout the room and the customer/venue is happy enough with the sub's arranged as is, great! However, it does appear there are placement options available that may provide an increase in performance. Again, without seeing the entire layout of the room, it's difficult to say... but, from what I can see, there are two placement options I would recommend you/the venue try out and see if there are improvements.

Option 1, both subs together, v-plated would be best but would eat up a lot of stage floor space, so vertically stacked if there's enough vertical space to save stage floorspace, side by side if need be... aimed and firing into the back corner where the mic stands are in the photos.
IMG_2929.jpeg
Option 2, both subs stacked vertically and wall loaded at an angle on the wall to the right or if there's room on the wall, side-by-side as shown below.
Image

If the room is essentially twice as long as the width we can see, you may find that one sub in the corner mentioned and another kitty-corner in the back of the room may provide the best response throughout the room.

Since it's a permanent install, I think it's worth taking the time to test as many placement options as possible in order to identify the best possible response in the room. When it's good, it's really good. Like, knock your socks off, good.



BTW, how long did it take you to assemble the four DR's?
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

mj90210
Posts: 79
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2017 2:12 pm
Location: Montana-USA

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#11 Post by mj90210 »

Wow! Looks clean! The only room for improvement is safely flying those things. Everything looks great! I will share with my friends in CS so they can maybe come check out your space. Bravo.
Thank You All for Your Time!!...Really!

Built:
2xDR300's
4xDual-30” Tuba 60’s
Simplex 21" Eminence NSW6021
1x20” THT
TLAH‘S
SLA Center-9 driver and Surrounds
SLA pros
TrT 10" Driver-10" Wide
Auto Tuba 10" Driver

Pryor
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2023 12:01 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#12 Post by Pryor »

Seth wrote: Tue Oct 03, 2023 6:57 pm Hey Prior, welcome to the forum and thank you for sharing your success.

I've gotta say, your cab building experience really shows through in your execution of these cabs. Well done my friend. :thumbsup: And, while it's difficult to see the full venue in the photos shown, it seems you brought military grade missiles to a knife fight. Waaaay overkill for the space. If they like it loud, you sir have certainly fulfilled upon their desires and expectations.

Even though I would personally do all my cabs in Duratex, I really like the blue-ish stain, dark seams, and what looks to be a low shine/matte polyurethane topcoat. It really makes a lot of sense for the particular venue and install. Very classy. And, interesting choice to leave the top and bottom of the butt cheeks open and unfilled. I think that's a good move too, if for no other reason than simply to display and/or reveal one of the more interesting parts of the DR280 cab's design. Everything looks like a high quality build and finish, through and through. The Melded Array's look like they came out really really well too. And props for logos on the T48's. It's a nice touch that you added your own and also included the "bf" logo.

Screenshot (272).png

I'm sorry the thread has been mostly critical up to this point. However, it's not without reason. It's a good thing that they're low enough that no one can walk under them. Personally, if it were me, I would have squares of angle iron welded up that the bottom speaker can sit on and register into, and run 4 pieces of all-thread straight up to the ceiling into some steel 1x1 that bridges the gap between the ceilings joists. That way, the design and integrity of the speaker cab isn't responsible for any hanging load whatsoever. The cabs will be supported from below, as they were designed to be used. Plus, the angle iron, all-thread, and 1x1 can be painted to blend in more with the rest of the install. That said, ultimately, if the cabs end up falling or otherwise injuring someone due to the installation method (any installation method), the companies insurance will likely not assume liability unless the installation method has been signed off by an appropriate civil engineer. Not a huge big deal, but a possible medical and legal nightmare if there's ever an issue.

If the bass response is even enough throughout the room and the customer/venue is happy enough with the sub's arranged as is, great! However, it does appear there are placement options available that may provide an increase in performance. Again, without seeing the entire layout of the room, it's difficult to say... but, from what I can see, there are two placement options I would recommend you/the venue try out and see if there are improvements.

Option 1, both subs together, v-plated would be best but would eat up a lot of stage floor space, so vertically stacked if there's enough vertical space to save stage floorspace, side by side if need be... aimed and firing into the back corner where the mic stands are in the photos.IMG_2929.jpeg
Option 2, both subs stacked vertically and wall loaded at an angle on the wall to the right or if there's room on the wall, side-by-side as shown below.
Image

If the room is essentially twice as long as the width we can see, you may find that one sub in the corner mentioned and another kitty-corner in the back of the room may provide the best response throughout the room.

Since it's a permanent install, I think it's worth taking the time to test as many placement options as possible in order to identify the best possible response in the room. When it's good, it's really good. Like, knock your socks off, good.



BTW, how long did it take you to assemble the four DR's?
Thank you Seth for all this great advice! We will be implementing everything suggested that we can as soon as we can. I don't want anyone getting hurt or the speakers themselves getting damaged.

I have to say that I opened the thread with a great deal of embarrassment so the helpful tips are most appreciated. I did think about the fact that the cabs are designed in such a way that hanging them just from the top board of the top cab isn't going to work on its own, so we added a bunch of screws from the side boards along with the metal brackets transferring a lot of the load to the sides to compensate. It seems to have worked out fine so far, but we will be thinking about different ways of how to beef that aspect up more for sure. First of all we will fix the "death triangle" rigging and go from there with some angle iron on the ceiling from joist to joist and hang the chains as vertical as possible. Again, this is our first PA build and install so please forgive our ignorance on the rigging.

We will definitely try some other placements on the subs to get the best results. I will also be doing sound down there as well so I'll have a lot of time to mess with them.

The first two DR's took us more time than I would like to admit kinda figuring everything out and fixing a couple things that we missed. The second two were way faster. We got those done in about 4 days with drying time. We have a cnc so we made some alignment templates that sped things up along with being able to cut things out faster and accurate. It was stressful at first but ended up being a very fun and rewarding build. I 3D printed the nacelles, crossover plates, and the pieces on the tweeters.

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6915
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#13 Post by Grant Bunter »

Pryor wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:59 am I did think about the fact that the cabs are designed in such a way that hanging them just from the top board of the top cab isn't going to work on its own, so we added a bunch of screws from the side boards along with the metal brackets transferring a lot of the load to the sides to compensate. It seems to have worked out fine so far, but we will be thinking about different ways of how to beef that aspect up more for sure. First of all we will fix the "death triangle" rigging and go from there with some angle iron on the ceiling from joist to joist and hang the chains as vertical as possible. Again, this is our first PA build and install so please forgive our ignorance on the rigging.
I'll put my hand up being the first to bring up the rigging. I will never apologise for doing so. No one ever needs to go out either as a player or a musician and be injured as a result.
There's been far to much of it around the world over time.
I see you get that, and that's great.

I suggest you get the shop owner to engage an engineer (structural) so it can be signed off.
The engineer will look at the rafters and see if the cabs and the flying load can be managed. They will tell you if angle iron is ok. They may also say that the load needs to be on slings and shackles rather than chain.
Yes it costs money, but signed off rigging is on their head, and no one elses.

Just to make sure it is totally clear to you, no metal should be in the cabs at all for any part of the rigging.
Bill says, in effect, that DR series cabs if flown, must be wholly enclosed in a flown frame that supports the cabs in total.

In other words, the frame is flown on the chains or slings, and the cabs sit in that frame.
Pryor wrote: Wed Oct 04, 2023 11:59 am The first two DR's took us more time than I would like to admit kinda figuring everything out and fixing a couple things that we missed. The second two were way faster. We got those done in about 4 days with drying time. We have a cnc so we made some alignment templates that sped things up along with being able to cut things out faster and accurate. It was stressful at first but ended up being a very fun and rewarding build. I 3D printed the nacelles, crossover plates, and the pieces on the tweeters.
I did mention excellent build, and it is!
Pffft to you and your CNC and 3d printing. Joke. Jealous much.

Did you use blue analine dye for the finish? That and the logos are the amazing...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

User avatar
Chris_Allen
Posts: 3355
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2007 2:43 pm
Location: Huddersfield, UK

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#14 Post by Chris_Allen »

I 'flew' my DR200s by putting steel threaded bars through the cabs, essentially stacking them on the steel plates with a welded nut. I doubled with a locking nut underneath when I used them.
Attachments
IMG_20130606_184304.jpg
IMG_20130606_175821.jpg
IMG_20130606_175605.jpg
IMG_20130606_152349.jpg
IMG_20130606_202757.jpg
Built:
6xDR200, 2xT39, 2xT48, 2xJack110, 1xOmni10.5, 1xAutotuba, 1xT18, 1xSLA Pro, 1xW8, 1xW10

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 28593
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: 4 DR280 and 2 titan48 for a record store/venue!!!

#15 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

That's the right way to do it. Have the weight supported by steel, not by wood.

Post Reply