2x12 30" T30 vs 186 horn?

[Line92]

Hi, now im getting sick of moving my two 186 horns, its a two mans job atleast... They weigh 170 pounds each and also no handles, but wheels ofc. If i would mount handles on them i would still need help to lift them, if the handles dont break first haha

https://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=186horn

I really like the sound of the 186 horns, its very "quick", smooth, effortless, precise, and the kick in the chest outdoors 20+meters away is lovely! Also they can be used up to about 160hz without getting "honky".
Would keep them and add 2 if i was able to stack them alone, weight is the biggest problem
RCF L18P300N loaded, they do handle 120V each all night way before clip or any noticable distortion but isnt very effective below 50hz. (97db 1w1m 2pi at 40hz) (106db at 70hz)

When i mess around with EQ in my Driverack i can get this low thump i love at 30-40hz that i want way more of.
Now i need to HP them with LR48db at 35hz if i need to push them over 100V each to be safe.
Its only a matter of time before i blow a driver i know!
Thats why i want to sell them before disaster, and build new subs that are smaller, not as heavy and goes a bit deeper without the same need of eq..


Subs will be used both indoors and outdoors, playing recorded modern bass heavy dance/rock music mostly. Some RnB and hiphop aswell.
One pair of SLA PRO 4x6 as tops, for now


So, im looking at the spl charts of the Tuba 30, and they seem very promising, alteast with 30" width and dual 12" V-coupled.
Is that chart with 4012 close to 3012lf response?
My math tells me that two 2x12" T30 at 30" V-coupled would match sensitivity of two freestanding 186 horn between 50-70hz where the "kick in the chest" is. But outperform below 50hz, and above 70hz.

But i realise that two T30 dual loaded 30" wide will also be pretty big and heavy, and needs to be HP at 35hz, just like my current subs. Would the T30 still outperform the 186?
Maybe 4 T30 30" single Lab12 would be better then i could hp at 30hz..?
Whats your thoughts?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Judging by the SPL chart the 186 should be high passed at 60Hz. Its lack of low end is typical of what happens when you use a driver that's too big in a horn that's too short.

[Seth]

I drew in a rough plot of it over a 30" T30 and 24" T45. Keep in mind the T45 plot is a 6 ohm driver.

[Line92]

Thanks for replies and Merry Christmas!

Yeah it sounds like it has no real natural low end extension, the kick at 50-70 is fantastic tho, but i would get more of that with V-coupling T30s? Does V-coupling affect all the effective passband equally, or do it "tune" the horn to make more of certain frequencies?
And, is the plot with V-coupled T30 2x4012 close to V-coupled 2x3012lf?

Wow thank you seth i didnt know the T45 has that major difference to T30, its pretty massive actually, but what i understood the T45 does not apply with V-coupling benefits right?
Me, just like alot of others want as much sound i can get out of as little i can afford recipe for disaster maybe..
There comes the question about making twice as much cabs with single 12 Labs, the benefits of a greater amount of cabs should be that i can HP them a bit lower right?

EDIT: sorry seth i did see that the T45 is 6ohm now, that explains it all.

[Ken Lustgarten]

Since you indicated a strong desire to get away from big heavy boxes. I would not recommend building T30's at 30" wide and double loading them. Instead go with the minimum width of 16" maybe even 20" single loaded with 3012LF's. I have worked with Lab12's in the past and they are heavy. The return for the weight is not there, study the spl charts. Two single loaded 16" cabs will preform the same as a double loaded 30" while being much easier to pack in and out. The slimmer cabs are easy to handle by yourself. Not only are they lighter but they are not an awkward shape that is hard to wrap your arms around when stacking. The T30's will get down to the range that you need. Start with 4 of them properly limited. If you need more output don't push the subs past there safe limit, build more cabs!

[Seth]

Thanks for replies and Merry Christmas!

Yeah it sounds like it has no real natural low end extension, the kick at 50-70 is fantastic tho, but i would get more of that with V-coupling T30s? Does V-coupling affect all the effective passband equally, or do it "tune" the horn to make more of certain frequencies?
And, is the plot with V-coupled T30 2x4012 close to V-coupled 2x3012lf?

Wow thank you seth i didnt know the T45 has that major difference to T30, its pretty massive actually, but what i understood the T45 does not apply with V-coupling benefits right?
Me, just like alot of others want as much sound i can get out of as little i can afford recipe for disaster maybe..
There comes the question about making twice as much cabs with single 12 Labs, the benefits of a greater amount of cabs should be that i can HP them a bit lower right?

EDIT: sorry seth i did see that the T45 is 6ohm now, that explains it all.

The difference between 8 and 6 ohm at 2.83 volts is .3 watts, 1 vs. 1.3. So, that power difference would account for about 1dB of the increased sensitivity of the T45 in that graph. The narrower T45 still shows a marginal premium in sensitivity over the wider T30. By my account, having unfolded the horns in Sketchup, the T45 has about 13" more horn length than the T30. Although, yes... the end fire design isn't naturally conducive to a v-plating configuration. As I understand it, v-plating adds sensitivity to the bottom end of the curve. But, I really don't know enough to say for sure or not. Bill will have to speak to that.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

This gives a better indication of how a 2x12 T30/T45 compares to a PD186. The lower trace is the PD186. These are calculated response traces, which have deeper peaks and valleys than what you get in real life, but the comparison is valid.

[Line92]

Thank you Bill for that comparision. But that is also 4ohm right?
And the 186 trace seems a bit low to Rogs plot, how come?
Still pretty massive difference where i need it tho, down low!

Yeah my back will definitly thank me if o go double amount of like ~18" wide T30s. Realised that 30" wide is massive to reach around.

So, four T30s, ~20" wide 3012LF will outperform my two 186 horns in sensitivity and low extension, especially when V-coupled, but how about max spl?
The VD of the L18P300 is about ~900 and 3012LF ~500. In total 1800 to 2000, a bit of a difference, only that the 3012lf will hit max spl with ALOT less power than L18P300.
So that i would not need to bridge my two Lab1000 now, i can get about 58v/channel without hitting cliplimiter. 3012LF in T30 should be limited to 50V.
So at 4ohm/channel (2ohm stable amps) they could be enough for 8 T30s single 3012LF loaded. Thats nice! is my math correct then? (Acually 16 of them but i dont want to push the amps to hard down at 2ohm!)
In that case the benefits of using T30s is massive, one amp at 2.7ohm/channel will do a total of 6 cabs if not pushed way to hard, (no big headroom there tho) but i will fit 6 20" T30 in my garage without cutting my work bench, and almost afford the drivers from selling my 186 horns. (Maybe start with 4 and then build 2-4 more if i really need them)

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I can't comment on how Rog came up with that result, all I can be sure of is what the math says. That's why I posted the T30/T45 chart using the same protocol.

[Line92]

I can't comment on how Rog came up with that result, all I can be sure of is what the math says. That's why I posted the T30/T45 chart using the same protocol.

Oh then i see, so the response chart of the 186 is a bit overestimated, if that is the correct word haha?
If i am happy now with the sound and performance of my two 186 (except the lack of low end) me, the crowd and my back should be even more happy with four 20" wide 3012LF T30s?

EDIT: Is the nominal impendance still 8ohm with the 3012LF in T30? I did read that the horn increases the impendance slightly, (maybe only in T60?) good to know if i would ever consider six cabs on one amp. But ofcourse eight cabs on two amps would be alot better.