Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

Our easiest to build speaker lineup.
Message
Author
Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#1 Post by Dagwin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:22 am

Hello,

I bought the new Celestion F12-X200 FRFR speaker, which is a coaxial speaker but constructed as a guitar speaker rather then as a PA speaker:
https://celestion.com/product/200/f12x200/

I have it built into an old open back cabinet I still had, but it sounds only good with the volume turned up.
And the cab or speaker rattles...
At low volume, it's lacking bass response and sounds "thin".

Would the Simplex wedge be a good fit for this speaker ?
Could I use it both as a wedge and as a cab by putting it on the side ?

I was looking at a ported cabinet/wedge from Montage but want to build something myself (have built an XF212 with Celestion Redbacks and had good results with that).
But now I want to switch to FRFR as I have a modeler (more freedom in sound with IRs, smaller cab and lighter weight).
This is the cabinet I was looking at:
https://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/m ... nglj2ligv1
I like that it can be used as a cab, as a wedge and even pool mounted.

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 26843
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#2 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Wed Dec 12, 2018 11:16 am

There are no T/S specs for that driver, nor any usable spec range for that cabinet, so no definitive answer is possible.

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6747
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#3 Post by Bruce Weldy » Wed Dec 12, 2018 12:17 pm

Dagwin wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:22 am

I have it built into an old open back cabinet I still had, but it sounds only good with the volume turned up.
Since you already have the cab, why not just close the back and see what happens. It should help the low end and might be all you need to do ..... beats the heck out of that expensive cabinet that may not work any better.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#4 Post by Dagwin » Wed Dec 12, 2018 1:07 pm

Did that, even more rattling... Really unusable in that cab.
Its an old Marshall 8080 valvestate from which I removed the amplifier part, but the metal casing of the amplifier part is still in the cabinet.

Perhaps I'll put it in the XF212, then at least I will know if it is the speaker itself that rattles....

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#5 Post by Dagwin » Fri Dec 14, 2018 3:02 pm

Update: it was the speaker casket (the white cap on the back) that was rattling.
Celestion is going to pickup the speaker and investigate.

The speaker also will not fit the XF212, it is longer than a regular speaker.
About 4-5 cm deeper than my Celestion REbacks that I have in the XF212.

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#6 Post by Dagwin » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:48 am

Still would like to know if the Simplex WEdge would be a good fit for this speaker! :-)

Bruce Weldy
Posts: 6747
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 11:37 am
Location: New Braunfels, TX

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#7 Post by Bruce Weldy » Sun Dec 16, 2018 12:48 pm

Dagwin wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:48 am
Still would like to know if the Simplex WEdge would be a good fit for this speaker! :-)
As Bill said earlier.....with no specs, there is no way to compare it to the recommended drivers to see if it would perform. But, for what you want it for - it should be fine.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 26843
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#8 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:03 pm

Ask Celestion for the T/S specs.

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#9 Post by Dagwin » Sun Dec 16, 2018 2:27 pm

Sorry Bill, didn't understand the first time what you meant with T/S and had to look it up.
Sent a mail to Dr Decibel (Celestion) to ask for the Thiele/Small parameters, let's see if we get any reply....

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#10 Post by Dagwin » Tue May 28, 2019 6:31 am

Hi, its been a long while, but I have the Thiele parameters now for the Celestion F12-X200.

I have attached them.

Celestion itself recommends a bass-reflex cabinet and provides a plan here:
https://celestion.com/speakerworld/irs/ ... et_Design/

I have tried the F12-X200 in already this cabinet:
https://www.lean-business.co.uk/eshop/m ... -2957.html
For music it sound great, but any of my guitar presets sounds "boxy", don't know how else to describe.
It's as if the speaker/cabinet is placed in a large box.

So I'm again looking to build something myself, either form the plan from Celestion or from one of the designs from Bill (as I'm quite happy with my XF212).
That could be a simplex or an XF212 with larger dimensions.
Hoping you can make a recommendation based on the Thiele parameters !
Attachments
Thiele_Parameters.png
Datasheet-incl-Thiele.jpg

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#11 Post by Dagwin » Tue May 28, 2019 6:36 am

I have an PWR-ICE125 from minidsp to drive the speaker, want to build that into the cabinet:
https://www.minidsp.com/products/plate- ... pwr-ice125

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 26843
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#12 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Tue May 28, 2019 7:18 am

That driver is totally unsuited for a ported cab. Why Celestion recommends it I can't understand. It would work pretty well in a sealed Simplexx Wedge. If it turns out to be boomy totally fill the cab with polyester pillow stuffing.

Dagwin
Posts: 14
Joined: Mon May 28, 2018 6:50 am

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#13 Post by Dagwin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:37 am

Thx Bill!
May I ask what is the reason why it is unsuitable for a ported cabinet ?

And before I order...
Your site doesn't mention a sealed design for the Simplexx Wedge, it does mention this for other Simplexx designs.
Is a sealed version included in the Simplex Wedge plan or should I just build it with a full baffle (instead of cutting the corners) ?

User avatar
Bill Fitzmaurice
Site Admin
Posts: 26843
Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 5:59 pm

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#14 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Wed Jun 12, 2019 6:58 am

The Qts of .77 is only appropriate for a sealed or open back cab, not ported. The Simplexx Wedges are optimized for use with Eminence coaxial drivers, which work best in ported enclosures. To make one sealed omit the ports.

CoronaOperator
Posts: 1618
Joined: Wed Mar 25, 2009 7:07 pm
Location: Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada

Re: Simplex for Guitar FRFR use with Celestion F12-X200

#15 Post by CoronaOperator » Wed Jun 12, 2019 8:21 pm

Dagwin wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 9:22 am
, but it sounds only good with the volume turned up.
Said every guitar player anyone has ever done sound for .... with their 4x12 .... in a coffee house .... :wall:

:loler: :loler: :loler:
Built:
17" width 10" driver Autotuba
2 x 29" width dual Lab12 Tuba60
6 x DR250 2510/asd1001
In progress:
2 x DR250 2510/asd1001
For best results, point the loud end of the array towards the audience

Post Reply