Track Saw Shootout

[escapemcp]

Hi all... I'm fishing for information, so if anyone can help, it would be greatly appreciated.
I am planning to buy a track saw next month as I have seen the light and seen how useful they can be. For the same money I could get a decent table saw, but the problem with that is space... although I have a large garage to work in, I cannot take over too much space in there.

I am therefore thinking of the following models:

Scheppach PL 45/55


The original plan was easy - buy one of these Scheppach/Woodstar/Grizzly track saws, that I could get from a local supplier (ScrewFix) for £129 with 2 bits of 80cm (31") track. I have read many reviews on this saw it seemed like it would be a good deal once I had sorted out the known problems of the wobble on the track due to the non-friction strips being so close together and also the stiff plunge spring. I have since realized that the track is too short (see top pic - the saw is almost as big as the track! ), and apparently the join on the scheppach track isn't good. I can get a longer track (1.4m/55"), but this puts the price up. I also read that the PL45 has a 145mm blade on it, which is unique to this saw!! I would be happy to run with a 140mm blade on it, and adjust the depth stop accordingly as even with the correct blade, it doesn't take account of the track anyway! The PL45 seems to have different track and accessories - I am unsure if this is just vendors making it simple for purchasers, but nowhere have I seen something like "Track for the PL45/55" - it's always been one or the other. I would probably therefore opt for the PL55 with the bigger blade, more powerful motor, and more standard accessories but again that is adding cost. The biggest issue for me though is that I discovered that when the saw is beveled, the saw cuts on a different line! This would therefore cut the splinter guard and then you'd have problems lining up the cut when you switch back to doing perpendicular (90°) cuts. What with all the various bevels that BFM asks of the builder, I realized that this would be a right PITA when building cabs. My current saw sled has seen me through 8 speaker builds (OMG, is it really that many!). I recently recut it to a 3° bevel for the DRs. I now find lining up a 90° cut very difficult, even though it is only 3° off. I know I need to allow a smidgen for the angle, but I never get it right - owning the Scheppach would result in a similar experience, so it's out. A shame, as for the money and from the reviews, this looked like a great saw, but the extra costs (longer track, bigger saw - increased the initial £129 cost up to £170) soon meant that it didn't seem like such a good deal, and the bevel problem is the final nail in the coffin (TBH, it's the first and final nail - a total dealbreaker)

Dewalt DWS520K

This is the saw that started it all. I saw some videos on this saw and could see the advantages of owning one. In various reviews though, the Festool comes out on top. The festool is only £50 more expensive for the saw and track (~1.4m/~55") - £275 vs £325. If I'm going to be spending that sort of money, I'd rather pay the extra £50 and know I have the best (apart from the mega-bucks Mafell) - buy once innit! The DeWalt is much bigger and heaver, which could be a PITA for the small cuts I will be doing.

Festool TS55

I haven't seen one bad review of this saw. It has been mentioned that it is a copy of the Mafell (which retails at £600+ ), but it's a well executed copy. This is therefore high up in the running (and high up in the cost also !) Then I came across the wildcard:

DeWalt DWE576K

This is NOT a plunge saw, but rather a classic circular saw, but it can use the DeWalt track. I thought about it, and I figured that I would rarely use the plunge function (only for sub access hatches). I am also unsure if the plunge saws cut a straight line (in the vertical plane) when they plunge, or whether you have to go back to it to neaten it up (as is the case with my current circular saw). If you have to go back to neaten it up, this makes the plunge even less important to me. But this saw's party trick is that it can cut up to 57°, presumably helped by that large base. That could be a real help with the T30's 50° cut, and it is ideally matched to the DR's throat horn top & bottom cut at 57°

I haven't seen ANY reviews of the DWE, and I'd like to hear how it works when combined with the DeWalt track - I'd want to check it didn't have Scheppach's problem with the bevel cuts and that the blade rotated about the rubber splinter strip. The heart really wants to get a plunge saw, but the head is telling me to go with the DeWalt circular saw. I can't decide!

Therefore, does anybody have any experience of using any of these saws? Does anyone have any advice or things/features that they would suggest I investigate before my purchase? Should I seriously be thinking about a table saw instead? Anything else!? Any help greatfully received

TYVM,

Aidan

[67baja]

There is also the Makita track saw: Makita 6 1/2" Plunge Cut Circular Track Saw SP6000K

I have the Festool and am completely happy with it. It cuts perfect. The downside of a track saw is it is only as accurate as your marks. If you don't have perfect marks or do not set the track perfectly on your marks, the cut will be out of square or off just a smidge. Festool makes parallel guides that would make perfect repeatable cuts just like a table saw, but anything with a "Festool" tag is made of gold and is way expensive.

[67baja]

Also read the thread here:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... aw+grizzly

[escapemcp]

Thanks for the link 67 I read the whole thing and read a particular post with great interest:

The splinter guard works really well.... and in many situations you don't even need it. It cuts really clean but you can only use the splinter guard for 90 degree cuts. I have often forgotten to put the splinter guard back on after an angle cut... but have never been pissed at the quality as a result. It does really well.

I was under the impression that ALL track saws (well, all except the Scheppach) could cut bevel cuts without any need to change the setup (such as removing the splinter guard). Just like in this video (6:20-6:40):


If a saw cannot do this, it really is a dealbreaker for me (just think of all the angled cuts in almost any BFM cab)... it stopped me considering the Scheppach, and it now seems like the Festool may be off the list also if I have to piss around removing the splinter guard everytime I want to do an angled cut. Is it only the Bosch that can pivot right on the underside edge of the splinter strip?? I'm confused now

Please help!

[escapemcp]

1:50-3:25 - it's all there in glorious colour - the Festool does cut on the same line, which makes me wonder what Ian was on about Festool is back in the game

[67baja]

I think the Festool has a splinter guard thing that attaches to the saw - but I have never installed or uninstalled mine. Never needed it cutting BB whether 90* or any other angled cut. You can cut a slice of 1/2" BB thin enough to see through it with the Festool. Truly great cuts. I have used mine to build quite a few cabs with 1 blade. It is about time to get it sharpened though since it is beginning to burn the wood a bit. New blades are about $80 -- nothing about Festool is cheap (in price or quality). I can't comment on the quality of the other brands, but would expect the Makita or Dewalt to be good quality. The knock offs? Not so much.

I bought my Festool track saw used for $400 with 24", 55", and 100" tracks. Then I found a Festool dust collector on CL and bought it. The two items together make a formidable tool combination. Now it is time for me to find a good table saw or bite the bullet and get the parallel guides.

[Tom Smit]

Aiden, you need to make separate sleds. 1.25m long, 3m long, and whatever number you need for the different angles. Scribe onto each as to what angle it is, and drill a ~13mm hole in the end of each one and hang them on a peg.

[Rick Lee]

I'm coming up on a year now with the scheppach and it's been great for me. I've only used it for 90 degree cuts however so don't have any insight on how accurate it is for bevels. Cuts right on the line and I rarely clamp the track. Probably should get a nicer blade for it.

Don't get me wrong- I'm sure the Festool, etc. is better but for the times I need to trim the end of a horn it works great. The two section track works just fine.

[tvan]

Aiden,

The Festool TS55 does a fantastic job on straight and bevel cuts. You do need to remove the outer splinter guard for bevel cuts, but that takes all of 5 seconds.

If I explain how the system works, this all will make more sense.

When you make a cut on any circular saw, the blade rotates in a direction so that the teeth cut upward at the front, making the teeth emerge thru the top surface of the board. This is done mainly for safety, so that the saw is drawn downward toward the work. Most splintering is on the top surface as the teeth pry away the wood fibers. As you cut a slot thru the wood, you are turning one board into two. Think of those as the "good" and "waste" sides of the cut. On the the Festool track, the plastic splinter guard just touches the blade, preventing the fibers from lifting (it is a perfect custom fit because you cut the strip with your saw the first time you use it - genius!). On the waste side, a removable green plastic guard does the same job of preventing fibers from lifting (yes, it is also "custom cut" the first time you use it). When you do a bevel cut with the TS55, the Festool engineers designed the tilt mechanism so that the blade always touches the "good side" track guard at the bottom edge, making cut alignment as easy as a straight cut and preventing the strip itself from being cut. On the "waste" side, for bevel cuts, the guard needs to be removed because it tilts down and interferes with (hits) the top surface of the wood.

The Festool blades are so sharp and the kerf so narrow that splintering isn't much of a problem anyway with the outer guard removed using the proper BFM "multiple even layer" plywood (no thin splintery outer plys for us).

I'll attached some pics to illustrate.

Hope this helps.

[tvan]

Here is a view of the TS55 ready to do a straight cut with the outer splinter guard attached



Here is a shot showing why the outer splinter guard gets removed for a bevel cut - easy on/off



The splinter guard itself, showing the cut made by the blade.

[tvan]

Some more info about the plunge issue:

The Festool TS55 is a plunge saw, as opposed to the traditional circular with the retractable blade guard.

Yes, you can make some cute cuts using the plunge action (especially since you can set stops on the track to precisely control the start/stop), but the plunge feature is primarily a SAFETY feature.

On the TS55, the blade is ONLY extended when actively cutting, and fully retracted up into the saw body otherwise. If you have spent much time with a traditional circular saw, then you know what a PITA the retractable guard can be, especially with angled cuts, when the front of the guard catches during the cut. The "better" traditional saws have the little handle on the retractable guard so you can use your finger to reach down and open a caught guard or open it before making the cut. Either of those maneuvers means you are not fully gripping the saw's handles. You can imagine what happens if you set the saw down while forgetting to release the guard after the cut and the blade is still spinning. On the TS55, you firmly grip both handles and press down to make the cut. No finger gymnastics.

Sure you can do a plunge cut using a traditional circular saw, but the exposed blade is a little scary, it is hard to make the plunge straight down the mark, and serious kickback is a real danger. On the TS55, you just put the put the track edge on the mark, set a special hooked stop to prevent any chance of kickback, then plunge away with prefect accuracy. Rest assured that the cut is perfectly vertical and there is never any "clean up" unless you marked it wrong.

I can hear the little "buyit" voice calling your name over and over, even from this side of the pond. If you need a good rationalization for spending a little more money on the Festool, then you can't find a better one than safety. After all, every BFM builder knows that you really need all ten of your fingers to build these contraptions, even if a few of those fingers are glued together with PL.

My advise - buy the Festool. You won't ever have to buy another circular saw and can pass it down to your heirs. If you decide to get out of woodworking, you can sell it on eBay for 70% or better of the original purchase price (2nd rationalization - I'm "renting it"). You won't find that kind of value on any of the other competitors (except maybe Mafell).

[Grant Bunter]

Aiden,
You're always pay to pay.
I'm never one to encourage others to spend lots of money when they perhaps don't need to.

Since you already have a circular saw, can't you find a few nice pieces of hardwood for less than the price of the tracksaw and simply make long sleds?
A zero tolerance one springs to mind and would cover 90% of your needs...

[caddylackn]

I have been looking into this panel saw system kit http://panelsawsrus.com/products/
I want something that will do full 4' by 8' sheet rips with accuracy and use my existing circular saw.

I like the fact that you can pop out the saw and put in a router to do dados. It also allows an easy way to do miters on full or partial panels.

Looks like you can build it for around $400, which is a deal for a panel saw.

[escapemcp]

Thanks for everyone's replies. They are all very much appreciated.

I have spent the last week (possibly more) investigating this purchase. For me, this is a big purchase I see that a couple of you have mentioned making several zero clearance sleds for all the various angles. Although I like the sled, and it finally made me understand how to actually use a circular saw (thx Bill!), I have several issues with them:
Firstly is that I keep nicking the edge when I take the saw off the sled after a cut. I KNOW I should just wait for the blade to stop spinning, but I am so eager to see if I got the cut right, this has never worked. My action on removing the saw is now much better, so this rarely happens, but it still does from time to time. Because I nicked the edge of my old sled so many times, I recut it to a 3° sled for the DRs and this worked well. Maybe I should just keep recutting the sleds with bigger angles as I damage them - like a conveyor belt of sleds.
The second reason is that I get pissed off with screwing and unscrewing the sled to the workpiece every time I do a cut. I should have made the base of my sled wider so that I could use clamps, but hindsight is a wonderful thing. I am worried that even with clamps on the left hand side of the sled (based on where I am standing during a cut), the sled at the cutline would rise up as the clamp point is 6"+ away from the cutline. I already find that if I use my screwholes toward the left of the sled, I can get a bit of lift on the cutline - moving the anchor point further leftwards can only increase this problem.
Finally, that's quite a bit of wood if I have to create a sled for all the angles. In the DR, there a total of 8 different angles (sorry, 9 with the 90° cut). I am also planning to build some more T30s, so that would add to that total (although there are probably some angles that are the same). The wood to make all of this would probably cost as much as a tracksaw I also have an issue with space - I'm a messy builder, and all those sleds would end up all over the garage... I'd be ages finding the one I needed!!

So as you might be able to tell, the tracksaw purchase has already been justified in my own head. Currently I have no wife (or husband ) to persuade in order to make the purchase with the 'family budget', so I'd better buy one whilst I can!!

I have been finding it hard to justify a Festool/Dewalt/Makita - I had decided that Makita & DeWalt were not in the running... if I'm going up toward £300, then I'd just bite the bullet and pay the £325 for the Festy - this price tag is high though, for someone who isn't an out-and-out woodworker. I just want something to make building cabs (and occasionally other things) quicker, easier and more of a pleasure. It's not like I can't build a cab right now with the kit I have, so £325 gains me nothing other than cleaner, more accurate cuts (which get covered in duratex anyway) and a nicer building experience. It's hard for me to justify any of the 'brandname' saws.

I have therefore been looking at the Scheppach again, as I discovered that it DOES cut on the line for straight and bevel cuts ScrewFix sells the PL45 and 800mm of guide rail for £130 - a pretty good deal except for the 145mm sawblade that is only available from Scheppach and that tiny track. Moving on to the CS55/PL55, I have read every review on the internet (including German and French!) and I think it's a good saw. It has it's flaws, but most are quite easily fixed. Some people on the review sites say something like "if I'm going to buy a saw, it should just work out of the box with out any adjustment". This doesn't bother me if I have to spend an hour getting the saw nicely set up to save quite a bit of money - if I spend an hour to save £150, that probably the best (paid) hour's work I have ever done. I don't think that any of them have noticed that even the Festool needs to be adjusted (to the rail) and set-up (splinter guard cut)!! Luckily all of the set-up adjustments to the saw are reversible, so that if it does go bang, you'll still be ok with the guarantee. To me, the biggest problem I have seen with the Scheppach is the track. It's not compatible with any others, so you are reliant on Scheppach if you ever want to buy any more in the future. There have also been quite a few reports of bent rails. Whether this is a manufacturing fault or a transportation fault hasn't been fully established, but that rail needs to be flat - anything else is (s)crap.

I had also seen a saw on a German site. A Batavia T-Raxx:


£99 delivered, and it fits the Makita and Festool tracks. I had initally looked at this saw and rejected it as I couldn't find any reviews of it - I would have been investing in a big unknown. I have since discovered that it is almost the same as the Makita:


People have been suggesting that some enterprising Chinese guy nicked the moulds for the Makita and then started churning out T-Raxx saws. It's far more likely however, that the Makita saw is an OEM saw... a Chinese manufacturer designed it and then sold it to Makita (with a bit of input from them on what features they wanted on it). This happens all the time - think of the 'Super OEM' turntables: Stanton ST.150, Reloop RP7000 (& 8000 with midi on it), Sync XTRM1, Akiyama Acura, American DJ HTD4.5 - there are all built by the same manufacturer in China and each brand who has purchased them have made small tweaks to the design, but underneath it's the same deck. For a more striking example:
American Audio Versadeck


DJinn Pro:


Citronic MP-X10 (with removable rack ears)

& there are about 5 other 'manufacturers' of this unit that I know of (as I've got the MP-X10 myself - used for in-van mixing on the way to parties! )

So I am assuming that the saw has been made for Makita by an OEM (although I cannot confirm this, it really looks this way). This OEM has also made the Batavia T-raxx and I have then found the Triton Track Saw that also seems to have come from the same mould:



It's a definite pattern and I'm 95% sure I'm on the money with this one! I found a second Batavia model, 1400W with a Alu storage case, anti-tilt, a kickback stop and the electronics of the Makita (soft start, speed adjust dial and constant speed adjustment when cutting):



(Compare this to the other Batavia model above and note the extra knobs on the base for the anti-tilt, kickback prevention and parallel guide, as well as a speed adjust dial to the right of the motor)
Best of all, I found it on Amazon UK, so no messing around with European distributors if anything goes wrong. I understand that some components may be lower quality, but I doubt it that it will be much lower than the Makita - you'd be paying at least £50 for the colour and the name badge! Comparing the Batavia to the Makita, I've noticed that it doesn't have a 22.5° stop nor does it go to -1°. I am also under the impression that it doesn't have a 45° stop, as it doesn't have a knob where the Makita does, but the manual mentions a 45° stop on page 34, so I am unsure on this one. It would be nice to have the 45° positive stop, but if it doesn't, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Neither saw has a riving knife either, although as they both have anti-kickback, I am thinking that this makes up for it a bit.

Finally, the clincher for me was finding the Batavia site (took a while, mind you!) and finding the manual. http://www.batavia.eu/products/13-t-rax ... manual.pdf. It's good and looks like some time has been spent on it and it's not just some Chinese thrown into Google translate! It's things like this that I often find can give away the quality of an item. If the manual has been thrown together by the 'manufacturer', how do you think the tool was made??

So it's looking like £179 for the thing from Amazon, combined with £40 for a 1.4m (55") section of Makita track - this is actually cheaper than the T-Raxx variant (which is actually 2 rails of 800mm each). I'll probably get the T-Raxx track later on, so that I have a small rail for the smaller cuts. Join all 3 bits up, and I will have 3m of track - plenty to chop an 8x4 to size. I deemed buying the 3m Makita track a bit of a waste, as it would only get used when chopping up a full sheet - something I don't do very often. At £130 it's also v. expensive when compared to the 1.4m track.

Sorry for the long post. I thought I'd explain my reasoning. There's a week of research gone into this, so I thought I'd share my findings. Feel free to comment Thanks.

[escapemcp]

Aiden,
You're always pay to pay.

Shit, you noticed It's Bill's fault, although I think you all have to take some blame for posting pics of your sweet looking cabs!