XF210 build in the UK

[Oxonjohn]

Having recently built a new guitar amp head as a backup to my old Vox AC10 combo, I needed a new cab. The XF cabs looked to offer something different to the norm and the thinking behind the design made sense to me. I decided on an XF210 as I've always been happy with 10"s in the Vox, and the smaller and lighter my kit the better these days.

There don't appear to have been a huge number of XF cabs built and I've only noted one being built in the UK (waldflote8) so I thought I'd share my experiences here.

My local builders merchant happened to have some 12mm Finnish birch in stock. I worked out a cut list which would allow them to cut a 4'x8' sheet into 3 pieces so I could get it in the car and still manage to cut all the panels required for two complete cabinets. As you will see, this turned out to be a wise move!

I ordered some EverBuild Lumberjack 30 min PU wood glue (as recommended by other UK builders as PL Premium isn't easy to get hold of in the UK) and armed with a circular saw, Workmate bench, a selection of clamps and measuring tools I started cutting.

My woodworking experience only stretches to the occasional shelf so I'm learning as I go along here and making many mistakes. My first one was simply misreading my rule when marking out the top resulting in a panel 1/4" too narrow ('measure, mark, measure, cut' doesn't work when you measure it wrongly both times!).

On another panel I clamped a bit too far away from the cut line leaving me with a slightly raggedy edge due to vibration and on another I lifted the circular saw out of the cut as soon as I reached the end resulting in a saw marks on the edge of the panel, but I think the expanding PU glue will allow me to get away with these two minor problems.

Then my eyesight failed me again while reading the plans and I cut the baffle blanks 15 3/8" square rather than 15 3/8" x 15 5/8".

So I ended up with 3 reasonable sized scrap panels from the first day. Fortunately I also need to build a cabinet for the amp head so I can use these pieces for that.

I'm not convinced by the quality of the wood I've got. I'm not necessarily experienced enough to tell what is good or bad, but I suspect that voids and layering such as that shown below are not an indicator of good quality?!!! Am I being over critical, or naive in carrying on using this?

I'm hoping it will be good enough for the XF cab but I may have to look to a different supplier if I start making PA cabs. I'm thinking of using Peter Benson Plywood of Darwen in future as I've seen him mentioned on here and I'm often up there visiting family. Has anybody used Peter Benson and have any testimonials to offer?


Next episode - gluing up.

John

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

That wood is probably OK, but I very much doubt it's Finnish/Baltic Birch, which simply does not look like that. It might have birch outer layers, may even be all birch, but the real deal looks perfect.
http://russianbirchply.com/

[escapemcp]

That wood IS pretty crap. You will find worse, but you can also find a LOT better, which is simply a joy to work with!
I use Meyer Timber in Chippenham, although it looks like you'd be midway between their offices there and Tilbury (and Southampton) You CAN get free delivery if you spend over £200 (which is about 6 or 7 8x4 panels of 1/2" BB). If you are thinking of building lots more cabs, it's quite easy to hit that magic £200 figure. When I got my BB from them I paid £26+VAT(=£31.20), although I think it has gone up a little since then. I did try to get some BB from them the other week - they didn't have any in stock , but I'm pretty sure they will have restocked since then When ordering just give them the standard spiel:
"12mm Baltic Birch with NO VENEER and an odd number of even width plies"
to ensure that you get the right stuff. I *think* it is cat ref PC000035 from here: http://www.meyertimber.com/default.aspx?pid=550. When the wood arrives CHECK IT... you'll just know if it's the right stuff as proper BB just oozes quality!
This is what real BB looks like FYI:

[Charles Jenkinson]

With your mentioning potentially picking up wood near Darwen, I thought of where i got mine. From these guys, Preston depot, not far from the marina. There's is the real deal. You'd have to ask about cutting to get it in a vehicle. I use a trailer.

http://www.cubiclesanddoors.co.uk/

[Oxonjohn]

Thanks for all the replies re the wood.

I'll carry on with this wood for the XF210 first build, Bill, but it looks like I should be able to source something better for any future builds.

Chippenham is only an hour from me, escape, so Meyer are definitely an option. Do they sell retail or do you need a trade account? And do they offer a rough cutting service for easy transport?

I'm not sure about the Preston lot, Charles, it looks a bit bog standard to me! Seriously, though, I'll keep them in mind.

John

[Grant Bunter]

While it may not look the best, I lift my hat to the manufacturers of your ply.
They have used the method of scarf jointing the intermediate layers, which is inherently stronger than butt jointing of the ply layers. Ideally, there would be no voids/gaps in your ply, but it is what it is.
Should be fine for an XF build.

We pay a fortune here as it is for BB/Finnish birch. Specifying it as void free (for any type of ply) increases price significantly again. Still it's a lesson learned before your further builds.

Keep up the good work...

[AdamM]

I used something just like that for my XF212, but its softwood (shuttering) ply as opposed to birch or other hardwood ply. On top of that, its barely 12mm in places, and lumpy because of those overlapping plies. Having said all that, it was dirt cheap (about £17 a sheet if I remember correctly), and available, and once I'd glued & screwed the cab together, it is without question the most sturdy cab I've ever come across. So I'm sure you'll be fine for a similar but smaller cab, which is what the 210 is.

What drivers are you planning on using? I'm about to start an XF210 myself and haven't yet decided, although Eminence Legend 105's look fantastic value.

I'm in Worcestershire by the way - not a million miles away.

[Oxonjohn]

Hi Adam,

Good to hear there's a least one more UK XF cab around and that your XF212 build went fine despite the quality of the wood. Unfortunately mine wasn't dirt cheap - I definitely paid a Baltic birch price for it!

I'm awaiting delivery of a couple of Legend 105s this week for my XF210 as it happens. They do look to give good bang for the buck. The only thing I'm worried about is that I'll be under driving them as I'll be using them with an 18W head. I'll be wiring two 16Rs in parallel which will give the cab 150W capability so whether I will get much of the speakers own voice from them I don't know. I guess I should really go for a couple of low powered AlNiCos but I'm not going to invest that kind of money at this stage - I can always upgrade later if I feel the need. What did you use in the XF212 and what do you drive it with?


By the way folks, I keep seeing BB referenced on this forum in two contexts, one as an abbreviation for Baltic birch and one for the grade. As far as I can gather the common recommendation is for Baltic birch that is at least BB grade on one side, but it could be a slightly lower grade on the other. Is this right?

John

[escapemcp]

Thanks for all the replies re the wood.

No problem, glad to give options

Chippenham is only an hour from me, escape, so Meyer are definitely an option. Do they sell retail or do you need a trade account? And do they offer a rough cutting service for easy transport?

Trade account is not required... they are happy to sell to the public. The first time I purchased from them I was working, so couldn't get there between 9 and 5 (I don't think that they are open Saturdays either). They said though that if I paid over the phone, there would be guys in the woodyard until about 8 dealing with a delivery and as long as I got there before then, I could pick up my wood - not bad customer service if you ask me! That's why I like going back there... despite mainly selling to trade, they are happy to accommodate my little orders!
They DO NOT offer rough cutting The first time I took a jigsaw and cut it on the forks of a forklift! - they only let me do this because all of the office staff had gone home. The next time I took a generator and circular saw. They let me cut it in their lorry area. If you give them a call and explain the situation, they might allow you to use their electricity or come up with some other way to get the wood down to size. I deal with a girl called Keri and she cannot seem to do enough!
Hope this helps and you can glean some useful info from my waffle

[AdamM]

I run my 212 with a 18W head, and the most common comment I get is "that must be more than 18W" - it competes quite competently with our other guitarist's Marshall TSL 60W combo. I've got a pair of old goodmans Audiom drivers in it currently - a bit too dark for my liking, but pretty good efficiency.

I think the Legends will not suffer from only being hit by 18W. My quandary is how to choose a drivers for a certain tone. I know what I like (tonewise) but online descriptions & reviews are pretty subjective, and sound samples rarely provide the best demonstration. I think I'll have to bite the bullet & get a pair of the 105's - the low cost makes it almost a justifiable punt!

[Oxonjohn]

Thanks escape, great info.

I can get to Chippenham on Friday afternoons and probably borrow a pickup if I need to, so Meyer should be good for me.

From the catalogue number you gave it sounds like you got the BB grade or BB/WG grade Latvian birch. Their catalogue also shows BB grade Russian birch but the price list only shows C grade Russian. Unfortunately they only do the 3mm, which I'll need for the sheaths if I do the Jack 10 lites, in Russian (the 4mm Latvian they have maybe a bit difficult to bend). I guess I'll give them a ring closer to the time on to see what they've got.


I hadn't really considered the layering as an advantage Grant, but I guess you are right - as long as it doesn't lead to deviations on the outside face or large voids, an overlap on the inner plies will give a better result than butt jointing them.


18W can be plenty loud, Adam, and is certainly enough for most pub gigs as long as you don't want to play too clean. My AC10 is only 12W and still my drummer complains that it's too loud. I'm only about 60 miles away from Worcester. I should have my Legends up and running in my XF210 next month so feel free to pop down if you want to audition them.

John

[escapemcp]

Thanks escape, great info.

I can get to Chippenham on Friday afternoons and probably borrow a pickup if I need to, so Meyer should be good for me.

From the catalogue number you gave it sounds like you got the BB grade or BB/WG grade Latvian birch. Their catalogue also shows BB grade Russian birch but the price list only shows C grade Russian. Unfortunately they only do the 3mm, which I'll need for the sheaths if I do the Jack 10 lites, in Russian (the 4mm Latvian they have maybe a bit difficult to bend). I guess I'll give them a ring closer to the time on to see what they've got.

TBH I am not actually sure which one I got, as I paid over the phone and never got an invoice. I think it was Latvian Birch. The reason why it isn't any better than whatever grade it is (BB, CC, BC etc), is because there are lots of little 'jigsaw pieces' where the the ply has been 'repaired' (voids filled). As such, you probably wouldn't want to use it just stained (although it would still look very nice like this). The BB or CC or whatever rating is ONLY for the faces (front/back), and doesn't actually bear any reflection to the quality of wood in the middle (I think - can someone confirm this please!). You could get some 'AA' quality and it could be the crap veneer stuff!

I'd phone beforehand just to check they have some in stock as they were out about a month ago - they should have some in by now. When you get there ask to see it. DON'T be rushed and make certain that it is the right stuff... pick at the edges to check for veneer, check the edge to check for 9 even plies like my photo - it shouldn't have any staining on the edges (well, my last lot didn't). If in doubt, ask the people there. This is probably the most important step of your build, so ensure that you get the right stuff.... you won't regret it (unlike I did when I couldn't wait for the BB to come into stock - see my T30 slim build thread for the consequences!!)

Good luck.

[Charles Jenkinson]

105's in a 212; how does that work then? Adaptor ring with offset fasteners...

I've been wondering about the tone differences between 12's and 10's too. There's loads about this on ordinary guitar forums so if its no different in XF cabs, or the builders here have no additional comments in relation to their build choice, I guess it isn't important.

[Oxonjohn]

Hi Charles,

The 105s are for my XF210, and Adam is considering building a XF210 in addition to his XF212 which is why he mentioned the 105s.

If he ends up having both, Adam may be able to give a good opinion regarding 10"s and 12"s once he's built his XF210, but only if he has similar drivers in each. As guitar drivers are generally tone generators rather than high fidelity reproducers there is as much variation between different designs as there is between 10"s and 12"s. Even the much quoted rule of thumb of 12"s being fuller and 10"s being more responsive doesn't stand up to much scrutiny. Driver choice certainly is important and makes a huge difference, but size is only one element of it and not necessarily the most significant.

People often spend years and thousands of pounds trying to determine their 'holy grail' driver, energy which would often be better spent on improving their technique to produce a better source tone from their fingers!

John

[AdamM]

I'm hoping for two things from an XF210 vs the XF212:

1. Size & portability - the 212 only just fits in my car with all the other kit I generally have to carry, and as a result it is getting really scuffed and torn. Looks good being authentically aged an so on, but I just can't help feeling a little let down after the effort put into building it. Plus, the average pub gig is tight even with the relatively compact XF212. The 210 will be an easier fit in the car (and most pubs), and one bonus of the XF designs is that the angled front tucks nicely into the boot space immediately behind the rear seats in my estate car - the angle of the seat back almost exactly matches the cab design. Hmm... was that an intentional design feature?

2. Tone - hopefully the 210 will give a bit more upper mid range, although driver choice will dictate this to at least the same extent as driver size and cab design. My current 212 is somewhat dark sounding - fine for Fenders, but too woofy reallly for a Les Paul. I've got a pair of old Goodmans Audiom general purpose 12" drivers currently - heavy and reasonably efficient, but bassy. Might change them for a pair of Fane Medusa 30's that I also have in another cab. Although these are lighter and (hopefully, I can't recall) brighter, I'll still be stuck with the size of the 212.