Titan 48x8 build

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chenry78
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Titan 48x8 build

#1 Post by chenry78 »

Ok, my TLAH pros are done and have been for a bit now (http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... 30&t=17359). So now that my little "wood shop" has had its dry run, im ready to start builiding what I came here for, and bought the plans for: 8 titan 48s and 8 dr 280s.

Obviously this thread is based on the easier of the two to builds, the titan 48. Dust should begin flying within the next week or so, until then I need help figuring out what drivers to buy. Now, I know the Lab 15 is the primary suspect here, and Im cool with that. However, Im really needing to run 4 ohms if I can. Ill be pushing these with a Crown xls 602's (http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls.htm#specs). Considering this, I wont have a lot of watts spare in my opinion; thus in importance of running at 4ohm. Now, the Lab 15 runs at 6 ohm and at a vd of 968 (http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/290-575s.pdf) vs. the Dayton titanic at over 1500 (http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-420s.pdf).

Now, the plans specifically state that Vd is king here. I know, I know; the Lab 15 is pro level and what not. But what if your not running these everyday? What if your running your subs say 10 times a year, and at 200 watts below the rms value of the subs (I say this considering the titanics rms at 800 and the 602 xls pushes at 600 watts rms at 4 ohm). Considering this Im thinking the titanic might be worth considering..or for that matter the Peavy low rider 15 (http://www.peavey.com/assets/literature ... _13679.pdf).

I dont know, I want the ohms offered by the titanic, the stated performance offered by the low rider and the dependability of the lab 15..please help!!! :feedback: :feedback: :wall: :wall: :wall:

el_ingeniero
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#2 Post by el_ingeniero »

Run 2 Lab15 powered subs in parallel on each channel. Since the folder horn adds 2 Ohms of impedance, that will give you 4 Ohms exactly on each channel.

In any case, I seriously doubt you will hear the difference between any of these subs when your amp is running at max output.

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Jon Barnhardt
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#3 Post by Jon Barnhardt »

The labs in titans become 8ohms when you add the horn to the 6ohm lab. (much like the 8ohm 3015 becomes 10ohms in the same cab)

The labs and 3015's have approx the same output regardless of Vd as the 3015 is a closer spec match to the titan. I'm not familiar enough with the others to make a statement on them...


EDIT: looks like I was beat to the punchline. That's what I get for leaving a tab open then getting distracted for 15-20 minutes...

gzc_stageTech
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#4 Post by gzc_stageTech »

Hey Clint.

You'll love the Titans. I have 4. They're stuffed with the 3015LF Neo's. I think you should consider those drivers.

First, they're $10 each less: 8 x $10 = $80, not a big difference, but a little to help with some of the other incidental expenses, like handles, speakon jacks, etc.

Second, the LAB15 has a 88.5dB/W sensitivity and the 3015LFs boast a 99.8dB/W sensitivity. Sure, the LAB is rated 600W RMS, but will you get to take advantage of it? The 3015LFs are 450W RMS and believe me...that's moving a lot of low frequency air. With 8 boxes...I think the 3015LF is a better choice.

I parallel a pair of subs on either side of a CE2000 and they cruise along happily all day and night.

Have a look at the 3015LF Neo and see what you think. It is one of the recommended drivers too and I would say, +1 to that.

You'll love the Titans. Massive.

Chris

gzc_stageTech
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#5 Post by gzc_stageTech »

Hey Clint,

I did a little comparison between the LAB15 and the 3015LF drivers in your T48s. I also compared the output of the Crown amps you have (XLS-602s, right?). Here's a quick summary.

w/1 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=6.71 amps, but 602s limit is V=60.8, I=6.08 (370W/8 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=8.66 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.4. I=6.80 (370W/8 ohm)

w/2 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=13.4 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.8, I=10.9 (600W/4 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=17.3 amps, but 602s limit is V=49.0. I=12.3 (600W/4 ohm)

So, your amp won't drive either driver to it's RMS rating, although the 3015LF get closer.

w/1 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=60.8 volts, I=6.08 amps (370W) 82%RMS
LAB-15 V=54.4 volts, I=6.80 amps (370W) 62%RMS

w/2 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=54.8 volts, I=10.9 amps (600W) 67%RMS
LAB-15 V=49.0 volts, I=12.3 amps (600W) 50%RMS

But with the sensitivity difference between the two drivers (at amp rated power output):
3015LF SPL=125.5 dB for 1 box/ch
3015LF SPL=133.6 dB for 2 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=114.2 dB for 1 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=122.3 dB for 2 box/ch

And you see that you don't use the 600W rating of the LAB-15, nor does it's output match the 3015LFs at the amp's capacity. Plus, it's $10 per driver less expensive. I think the 3015LF is the best choice.

Chris
Last edited by gzc_stageTech on Fri Jun 01, 2012 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SeisTres
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#6 Post by SeisTres »

Forget about pushing the amp to the absolute max. Decide if the weight savings is worth the extra money.

Also, before you build a whole fleet of them, get a different amp. I had the xls402 and 802 to drive my jacks and t39's with bp102's. They are utter crap.

I wasn't even using the beta on the jacks and i had the 402 thermal on me a few times. Same thing with the 802 but this one only one time. However, keep in mind it was bp102's and i felt it had trouble driving even those. I finally got rid of them and a month later i was told the amp had malfunctioned. Didn't want to be a prick about it so i took it back and gave back the money. The only redeeming quality about these amps is the crown service which is REALLY good. Got even a free shipping box mailed at no charge as i no longer had the original box.

I would recommend the behringer ep series absolutely every time over those amps. Hell, even i would recommend even my the power amp section of my $200 powered behringer mixer over these amps.
Built:6 t39, t18, 4 Jack10, 2 autotuba, 2 SLA,2 wedge, 2 TT, 2 Tritrix, curved sla, 2 otop212, 2 SLA pros, Ported 8" sub, 2 ported 210, dual ported 8" sub

SirNickity
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#7 Post by SirNickity »

Huh. I have a 202 and 802. The 202 was (well, still is) undersized for its original intended purpose and frequently driven into clipping. Never a problem, though the compression drivers on my Club Vs could be happier. The 802 has always been fine as well, but I haven't (yet!) had a load that would take its full power.

Not intending to contradict or anything, just another experience report to throw into the mix.

There's an 802 at the local Buy More that's been sitting on the shelf for a while. I'm tempted to make an offer. It's either that, or pick up an IPR 1600. Not sure I trust them for long-term use yet, but those 802s are not light.

Grant Bunter
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#8 Post by Grant Bunter »

Vd or displacement is only really useful in comparing driver A's output capability to how many of drive B it would be better than. However, increased Vd is not infinite. So I'd suggest to stay with pro sound drivers even though you don't want to use your cabs day in day out.

The maximum in terms of displacement limiting for T48's is 60V for both the lab 15 and 3015lf (as per current plans).

You won't get to RMS rating with 60V. As much as drivers are not about watts, it's about displacement, for amps it's not about watts it's about volts as that is all you can measure...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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chenry78
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#9 Post by chenry78 »

gzc_stageTech wrote:Hey Clint,

I did a little comparison between the LAB15 and the 3015LF drivers in your T48s. I also compared the output of the Crown amps you have (XLS-602s, right?). Here's a quick summary.

w/1 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=6.71 amps, but 602s limit is V=60.8, I=6.08 (370W/8 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=8.66 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.4. I=6.80 (370W/8 ohm)

w/2 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=13.4 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.8, I=10.9 (600W/4 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=17.3 amps, but 602s limit is V=49.0. I=12.3 (600W/4 ohm)

So, your amp won't drive either driver to it's RMS rating, although the 3015LF get closer.

w/1 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=60.8 volts, I=6.08 amps (370W) 82%RMS
LAB-15 V=54.4 volts, I=6.80 amps (370W) 62%RMS

w/2 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=54.8 volts, I=10.9 amps (600W) 67%RMS
LAB-15 V=49.0 volts, I=12.3 amps (600W) 50%RMS

But with the sensitivity difference between the two drivers (at amp rated power output):
3015LF SPL=125.5 dB for 1 box/ch
3015LF SPL=133.6 dB for 2 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=114.2 dB for 1 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=122.3 dB for 2 box/ch

And you see that you don't use the 600W rating of the LAB-15, nor does it's output match the 3015LFs at the amp's capacity. Plus, it's $10 per driver less expensive. I think the 3015LF is the best choice.

Chris
Thanks a lot for your feedback, I really appreciate it..this forum is unbelievably helpful!

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chenry78
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#10 Post by chenry78 »

gzc_stageTech wrote:Hey Clint,

I did a little comparison between the LAB15 and the 3015LF drivers in your T48s. I also compared the output of the Crown amps you have (XLS-602s, right?). Here's a quick summary.

w/1 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=6.71 amps, but 602s limit is V=60.8, I=6.08 (370W/8 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=8.66 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.4. I=6.80 (370W/8 ohm)

w/2 box/ch:
3015LF V=67.1 volts, I=13.4 amps, but 602s limit is V=54.8, I=10.9 (600W/4 ohm)
LAB-15 V=69.3 volts, I=17.3 amps, but 602s limit is V=49.0. I=12.3 (600W/4 ohm)

So, your amp won't drive either driver to it's RMS rating, although the 3015LF get closer.

w/1 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=60.8 volts, I=6.08 amps (370W) 82%RMS
LAB-15 V=54.4 volts, I=6.80 amps (370W) 62%RMS

w/2 box/ch at the amp's limited output:
3015LF V=54.8 volts, I=10.9 amps (600W) 67%RMS
LAB-15 V=49.0 volts, I=12.3 amps (600W) 50%RMS

But with the sensitivity difference between the two drivers (at amp rated power output):
3015LF SPL=125.5 dB for 1 box/ch
3015LF SPL=133.6 dB for 2 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=114.2 dB for 1 box/ch
LAB-15 SPL=122.3 dB for 2 box/ch

And you see that you don't use the 600W rating of the LAB-15, nor does it's output match the 3015LFs at the amp's capacity. Plus, it's $10 per driver less expensive. I think the 3015LF is the best choice.

Chris

...Ok im not getting the same numbers (http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-ohm.htm) ...god im stupid or something, obviously my masters degree didnt help!! :wall:

Im thinking the 802xls wired in parallel with the 3015 would be a very close match (http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls.htm) ..plus i can sell my three 602s and easily afford two 802s cause they go for almost the same amount...otherwise im open to suggestions for amp/wiring combinations with the 3015lf..i think that speakers certainly the way to go..

In summation: Going with the 3015lf (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Eminence-15-Woo ... 227wt_1249) this guys selling them awful cheap!!

Bottom line: the 602's arent gonna cut it.

The question: whats the best amp for the 3015lf

The assumption: its best to go two boxes per channel wired in parallel
:feedback:
Last edited by chenry78 on Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:15 am, edited 2 times in total.

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chenry78
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#11 Post by chenry78 »

SeisTres wrote:Forget about pushing the amp to the absolute max. Decide if the weight savings is worth the extra money.

Also, before you build a whole fleet of them, get a different amp. I had the xls402 and 802 to drive my jacks and t39's with bp102's. They are utter crap.

I wasn't even using the beta on the jacks and i had the 402 thermal on me a few times. Same thing with the 802 but this one only one time. However, keep in mind it was bp102's and i felt it had trouble driving even those. I finally got rid of them and a month later i was told the amp had malfunctioned. Didn't want to be a prick about it so i took it back and gave back the money. The only redeeming quality about these amps is the crown service which is REALLY good. Got even a free shipping box mailed at no charge as i no longer had the original box.

I would recommend the behringer ep series absolutely every time over those amps. Hell, even i would recommend even my the power amp section of my $200 powered behringer mixer over these amps.
I dont know, Im no pro but I think Id take the crowns over the Behringers...while I have never used the euro series I just know that I dont trust the dependability of Behringer..Ill use some stuff of theres but I try to avoid using Behringer on anything critical in the sytem. I.E. ill use an eq or pre amp but I might shy away from power amps or mixers. The dependability with there products is just questionable sometimes. but thanks for your feedback, I must admit I am looking them up on ebay right now..the price is RIGHT!! But ill probably upgrade to 802xls or something..I dont know moneys always and issue!!

gzc_stageTech
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#12 Post by gzc_stageTech »

Clint,

I double checked the V-I numbers to the calculator and they jive with my spreadsheet. Don't forget about the horn's impedance in the circuit (I added 2 ohms per box). Anyway total power is limited by the amp's capability. I used the amp's 8 ohm power for the single box calculations, and the 4 ohm power for the parallel connected boxes, both driven in stereo mode (not bridged).

If you want more amp headroom, then something bigger than the 602's would be in order. But consider this, 8 boxes will run you close to $400 each by the time you're done. Your 602's will drive them, but they'll work doing it. But the output at the amp's full power is 133 dB. That's a lot of thump. I bet you won't run them there unless you're in a large outdoor live venue.

My 4 subs are more than adequate for most of the bands I stage. 8 would be nice, and maybe someday I'll add more.

I think if you focus on the build and see how they sound, you can always decide later if you want to fight for 3 dB more. The 602's are "in hand". At a later time, If you want to look at another amp, consider the QSC PLX series. Good hard working, bullet-proof pro audio power.

Chris

Chris

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chenry78
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#13 Post by chenry78 »

ok, i just bought eight 3015lf's of ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330741179749?ss ... 500wt_1262

looks like ill be re coning some subs!

SeisTres
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#14 Post by SeisTres »

chenry78 wrote:
I dont know, Im no pro but I think Id take the crowns over the Behringers...while I have never used the euro series I just know that I dont trust the dependability of Behringer..Ill use some stuff of theres but I try to avoid using Behringer on anything critical in the sytem. I.E. ill use an eq or pre amp but I might shy away from power amps or mixers. The dependability with there products is just questionable sometimes. but thanks for your feedback, I must admit I am looking them up on ebay right now..the price is RIGHT!! But ill probably upgrade to 802xls or something..I dont know moneys always and issue!!
Their real amps, yes, but on these they dropped the ball. I think same thing happened with the cls or something series a while back. Came across alot of reviews on unhappy customers.

As for recommending the europower, it comes from first hand experience with them. Our very first amp for the band was an ep2500. This amp is a real work horse. It would get abused constantly with overdriven signals and low impedance loads. Never had a single problem with it. Then we got a ep1500 and same thing; never a problem. Four years later and both of them are running strong. And yeah, i get where you're coming from as behringer makes mostly crap with a very few products that really are golden, so you never know what you're getting with them.

However, similar performance to the europowers was the least i expected from the crown name. Needless to say i was very disappointed.

As i have not tried the new xls series but so i cannot comment on their performance or reliability. It might have improved.
Built:6 t39, t18, 4 Jack10, 2 autotuba, 2 SLA,2 wedge, 2 TT, 2 Tritrix, curved sla, 2 otop212, 2 SLA pros, Ported 8" sub, 2 ported 210, dual ported 8" sub

BassMe
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Re: Titan 48x8 build

#15 Post by BassMe »

chenry78 wrote:ok, i just bought eight 3015lf's of ebay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/330741179749?ss ... 500wt_1262

looks like ill be re coning some subs!
How much do recone kits cost?

Edit: NVM found it lol. Nice deal Chenry!
Last edited by BassMe on Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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