Wedgehorn 10 Review

[wallywally]

A $500.00 01V will do the eq you need, all within the board.

[Dantreige]

Monitors shouldn't be that hard to EQ. Having to RTA them everytime you go someplace new would be a real pain. And there just isn't the time available before a gig to spend on monitors - not when it is usually a 30 second fix to get 'em sounding good.

I wasn't suggesting using an RTA for every gig. It would be nice to see what the yamahas are actually doing and compair that to the WH10's. If Yahmaha would publish specs like Bill does, it would be easy to look at the graph and figure out where the differences are. I'm pretty sure that the Yamahas are not reproducing anything below 75 in any large amounts. Most monitors I have used dive pretty fast after 100.

I like the Yamahas. I use them in my current band. They are the best that I have ever used. Without the RTA data, it would be hard to produce the same sound. (As an aside, we have not even engaged EQ's on the yamahas the last four gigs. Three outdoor shows and one ball room. It just wasn't needed. No feedback, and I do not use a bass amp on stage. Just a sansamp and the yamaha. My band leader runs his guitar, keys, and a fiddle though them. Sounds great on all of them. Again, no eq.)

If you lived closer, I'd be willing to let you borrow my Jack 112's. They may be more to your liking for your situation. Use them as side fills.

[Gregory East]

The wedges make heaps of what, 60Hz? to 120Hz, makes you a lot of mud bouncing around and interacting with your subs as well.

Different problem from the EQ requirements of your inputs being all different but it might help seeing you got away with the Yamahas, it's not like they are magic EQ machines.

[Gregory East]

and +1 to using them as side fills, my singer has an annoying habit of zeroing in the back of her mic at monitors from time to time, generating feedback and a dirty look from me. I should insist on her leaving her mic on stand.

[Bruce Weldy]

The wedges make heaps of what, 60Hz? to 120Hz, makes you a lot of mud bouncing around and interacting with your subs as well.

Different problem from the EQ requirements of your inputs being all different but it might help seeing you got away with the Yamahas, it's not like they are magic EQ machines.

They are -10db at 65hz, so there's not much low end mud at all. In fact, they are very punchy sounding - that's the allure. They very well may be magic EQ machines....in that I plug 'em in and they sound good and I rarely make any changes from one venue to the next.

[Bruce Weldy]

I like the Yamahas. I use them in my current band. They are the best that I have ever used. Without the RTA data, it would be hard to produce the same sound. (As an aside, we have not even engaged EQ's on the yamahas the last four gigs. Three outdoor shows and one ball room. It just wasn't needed. No feedback, and I do not use a bass amp on stage. Just a sansamp and the yamaha. My band leader runs his guitar, keys, and a fiddle though them. Sounds great on all of them. Again, no eq.)

If you lived closer, I'd be willing to let you borrow my Jack 112's. They may be more to your liking for your situation. Use them as side fills.

They have certainly been workhorses and I was only replacing them to lighten the load and hopefully add a little more bottom end. I'm at the point now though, where spending more money on EQs or a different board (which I've still never seen be able to send groups to an aux out), just doesn't make sense. I'd be dropping cash trying to re-create what I already have with the Yamahas ....only lighter - which my wallet would be also, and there would be no guarantees.

I love the WH10s. They are light. They look great. They sound great with the right stuff going through 'em. I'm very proud of the build and they turned out fabulous - by far the best workmanship of any of the cabs that I've built.

I don't know if they have failed me or I've failed them. Either way, I can't ask the band to keep trying the experiment and I'm not going to force 'em to just because I built 'em. Plus, I told 'em I'd go back to the Yamahas if they'll tote 'em......(I ain't stupid)

Right now I don't know if I'm gonna' just store 'em for a while, pull the speakers and sell the boxes, or sell 'em whole......or maybe just have the best sounding garage system you can get - they look really good all stacked up.

Those 2510s could end up in Jacks or DR250s .....you never know.

[Gregory East]

but where you at with 100Hz and the wedges? They'll be booming out 100Hz bass left and right. Cardinal infraction.

[Bruce Weldy]

but where you at with 100Hz and the wedges? They'll be booming out 100Hz bass left and right. Cardinal infraction.

Sorry, but I have no idea what you are driving at.

Neither the WH10s nor the Yamahas are booming out 100hz. The problems are from 300-400hz and up.

[Gregory East]

...
As far as setting the monitors with the mains up, that certainly makes a difference in the low end, but that's not where my problem is. Getting the monitors sounding good by themselves and then adding the mains is just icing on the low end....
....
Don't get me wrong, it's not horrible - but it's not as good as it was before, and I want it to be better (a lot of work goes into these things - way more than either subs or OTs).

As I'm reading it you changed monitors from Yamaha's to WH10. This caused a problem with feedback and unintelligble vocals at the EQ required to kill the feedback.

What I'm thinking is the additional bass signal you have from the wedgehorns compounds your mixing problems. I fail to see how you wouldn't have really full bass coming out of the wedgehorns given the response curve shown on the plans site and the fact you like to mix the monitors first for fantabulous sound and then augment the FOH.

To me you got the cart before the horse as others already said.

The wedges make heaps of what, 60Hz? to 120Hz, makes you a lot of mud bouncing around and interacting with your subs as well.

Different problem from the EQ requirements of your inputs being all different but it might help seeing you got away with the Yamahas, it's not like they are magic EQ machines.

They are -10db at 65hz, so there's not much low end mud at all. In fact, they are very punchy sounding - that's the allure. They very well may be magic EQ machines....in that I plug 'em in and they sound good and I rarely make any changes from one venue to the next.

Not sure if you're talking about the Yamaha or WH10, what's -10dB at 65Hz. Mud can be all the way into the mids.

With the coverage you can get out of WH10 and your no backline approach I think you could go down to one of them, raise it up to ear level and fire it cross ways, bingo, no more mic feedback, 90 deg to the vocal mics and hopefully out of the drum mics as well. Keep your single monitor EQ then, as it worked fine with the Yamahas, but kill everything below 120Hz in the monitor mix and get it back from FOH.

Bonus points for only needing one WH10! Forum learning for you.

[Bruce Weldy]

With the coverage you can get out of WH10 and your no backline approach I think you could go down to one of them, raise it up to ear level and fire it cross ways, bingo, no more mic feedback, 90 deg to the vocal mics and hopefully out of the drum mics as well. Keep your single monitor EQ then, as it worked fine with the Yamahas, but kill everything below 120Hz in the monitor mix and get it back from FOH.

Bonus points for only needing one WH10! Forum learning for you.

Not sure what your background is in live sound.....but in 35 years of running sound, I have to admit that the above idea has never crossed my mind. I guess the thought of being chased down and beaten to death by a band never appealed to me.

And since I'm a musician also, I guess that I would be leading the pack - would that make it suicide then?

[Gregory East]

Your band being so far outside the box I thought it was viable. We're mostly learners here on the forum, me more than many. Being that "normal" ideas get tossed away in the face of the right way to do things perhaps 35 years experience is a handicap? But you and your band seem to be quite able to make the good theory work to your advantage...

So what would your bandmates find so distasteful about my proposal?
I can think of a few things:
Lack of a personal monitor. ( doesn't matter if you hear well, you've only got one monitor mix anyway )
Lack of overall stage volume. ( hey, you're the guys running no amps! One wedgehorn goes really loud I've heard! Use two? )
Lack of bass in the monitors. ( get it back from the subs )
Almost total absence of gear onstage. ( it's just another step from no amps init? )

[Bruce Weldy]

Your band being so far outside the box I thought it was viable. We're mostly learners here on the forum, me more than many. Being that "normal" ideas get tossed away in the face of the right way to do things perhaps 35 years experience is a handicap?

Not really that far outside the box. This is the second band I've been in that runs with no back line amps. Even touring shows are often putting amps under the stage or isolating them, relying only on the monitors. My reason is quite simple - I don't want the stage volume interfering with FOH. Our sound out front is really good and not muddied up with amps. I am always open to learning, but if you tell me that painting a room black will create more light - I don't have to actually do it to know that it won't work.

So what would your bandmates find so distasteful about my proposal?
I can think of a few things:
Lack of a personal monitor. ( doesn't matter if you hear well, you've only got one monitor mix anyway )

It absolutely does matter if we hear well. The whole point of having a single monitor mix is to allow the band to be very aware of the mix out front and make sure they place themselves within that mix. I choose NOT to have more monitor mixes. With FOH being run from the stage, we can't rely on anyone but ourselves to make sure things sound right.

Lack of overall stage volume. ( hey, you're the guys running no amps! One wedgehorn goes really loud I've heard! Use two? )

The purpose of monitors is to give the musician a mix loud enough to be heard at 4-6 feet, without bouncing off the back wall and muddying up the sound out front. My mains are delayed to try and help keep that "bounce back" in alignment with FOH. Cranking a monitor loud enough so that the whole stage hears it at a volume necessary to both hear and enjoy playing to totally defeats the objectives above. Not to mention that the guy closest to it will get his head blown off.

Lack of bass in the monitors. ( get it back from the subs )

First of all, the subs are located in front of the stage facing out so there is very little bass reinforcement from there. This is a covered pavilion. Placing them on the stage at the volume necessary for the venue is totally overpowering. But, that has not been the issue. We hear enough bottom end from the WH10s. What we don't hear is the definition of the note that comes from frequencies above the crossover point of the subs. This whole notion of getting it back from the subs is great for "feel", but it does not give the definition of the note necessary to even tell if the bass player is in the same key as I am. That's why bass players don't play through a T39 without an associated top. If a bass player needs highs to play to in his personal rig, it's no different running the bass through FOH.

Almost total absence of gear onstage. ( it's just another step from no amps init? )

The next step for me if I was totally clearing the stage would be in-ears. But there is something about the feel you get from moving air right in front of you.

If running sound was just about what we engineers want, it would be great. However, as a musician also - I know that the players have to hear, feel, and enjoy the music or the performance will be less than stellar.

Bottom line is that I've failed to get the WH10s working properly in the amount of time that has been reasonable for the band to endure. Whether it's my lack of ability or the fact that the box doesn't lend itself to my particular needs, at this point, is irrelevant. Maybe at some point in the future, I can try again when there aren't any time constraints. Obviously, I really wanted these boxes to work for me - or I wouldn't have invested the time and money to build 'em.

[Gregory East]

I've mistyped a bit, so I'll clarify...

I meant so long as you hear well it doesn't matter matter if you have a personal monitor station. I'm used to small stages where a single side fill wouldn't be a problem, horses for courses, I figured you would be quiet enough overall that one would do it.

More importantly, I meant take out the bottom end of the bass spectrum of the monitor mix, not the whole "bass guitar"!

[SirNickity]

Kind of an old thread, but an interesting discussion. I was just reading the Wedgehorn page, having been distracted by the Tubas, DRs, and SLA Pro up to this point.

From the web site:

The trouble is fifteen wedges typically have 'laser beam' dispersion in the mids and highs

Isn't that exactly what you want in a wedge?

the Wedgehorn 10 uses a horn-loaded woofer for high sensitivity and a melded tweeter array to give high frequency horizontal dispersion in excess of 120 degrees.

Isn't that exactly what you don't want in a wedge? That's like trying to sell an omni for a live vocal mic, citing the lack of position dependence and all that pesky proximity effect as advantages. My first thought was, woah, sounds like feedback city. Then I see this thread. So I'm not at all surprised.

Wide dispersion is great for the FOH, but I don't get the reasoning for wanting this - at all - for monitors. It seems totally at odds for the intended application. (Side fills notwithstanding.)

Since everything else is so brilliantly designed, I'm wondering if there's something I don't get. I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm honestly looking outside the box. What's the thinking here?

I hope you have taken the sub bass out of the monitors. If not, it would be small wonder the bass is hokey. The yamahas probably don't make anything low enough to compete and cancel with the subs.

I played a gig once where I was told there would be a PA. I was using a SansAmp RBI and didn't bring a cab, but just in case, I brought my SM12Vs for monitors. Good thing. This outdoor gig's provided PA included neither monitors nor a sub. So I used the pair for my bass as monitors and PA. Not well-suited, but surprisingly capable. I was both embarrassed and proud all at once. So yeah, there's a little bit of grunt in 'em.

[gdougherty]

Dispersion needs depend on your application. Line of 5-6 vocalists all sharing the same mix can easily be covered by a pair of wedgehorns with equal clarity. Stationary 4 piece with 4 monitors may not want the shotgun. Nexo has an interesting wedge meant to do what a WH does but with 3-4 of them linked side by side. Intended app is musicians that wander all over the place. WH allows that at a much lower cost.