Wedgehorn 10 Review

[Bruce Weldy]

We'll start off with a link to the build thread....
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... 30&t=15107

The reason for building the WH10s was to replace my Yamaha SM15V monitors. The Yamahas sound just fine, but I was looking to go a little lower and reduce the weight - they are 65 pounds with handles in weird positions.

Comparing the WH10 to the Yamaha side-by-side with the same EQ, the WH10 does go lower. And while I didn't weigh them, they are very easy to move - I put the handles in the sides/tops for positioning, but they are much easier to carry with the strap handle on end.

The first gig with them was in a covered pavilion. Large stage, plenty of room with no sides, just a wall 12 behind them cover in wood. We'd played this stage prior with the Yamahas. Quite honestly, it was underwhelming. In order to tame the feedback, I had to really kill the highs. The monitor amp was clipping trying to get the normal levels that we ran with the Yamahas. Very likely that the frequencies that I was cutting killed a lot of the level, but didn't have a lot of choice.

Took 'em back to the same place last Saturday night. Spent more time with the EQ, but pretty much had the same problem - Once I got the Vocals sounding right, my guitar tone was really flangy sounding. I was cutting a lot of mids to keep the vocals from sounding like they were in a box, but that killed the guitar tone.....and as we run totally direct, I had to get some of the mids back.

In order to get a clarity out of the vocals, I tried boosting a little 2k and 4 k, but the feedback began immediately, so they were pulled back a little and the overall gain was pulled back.

The overall impression of the night was that the band sounded ok through the monitors, but the vocals were really buried. Fortunately, we got a lot of bounce-back off the far wall that, while open, had a gable.

I'm not really sure where to turn next. I'll probably get one more chance to get it right before we go back to the Yamahas.

That said, with recorded music - they sounded fine. I just am really having a hard time keeping the feedback at bay and getting the mids to sound any good.

I'm using a dbx 1/3 octave EQ.

I'm open to suggestions.

[gdougherty]

Wedgehorns are really nice in that a pair can cover a stage with equal clarity, but they can also be a real problem in the same regard. Think of it this way, there are times you want to use a shotgun to hit something and there are times you want to use a rifle. Shotguns are not as effective if you try to use them when you need a rifle.

Practically, traditional monitors suffer from beaming and narrow on-axis clarity into the HF so you put them all over the place and aim them where you need. WH's in the same deployment will cover a lot more of the stage and the off axis response of the monitor can hit the pickup pattern of mics that previously weren't a problem. I find I have to be more careful with my WH's in placing them out of mic patterns than I do with a batch of traditional wedges. It also may be worth revisiting monitor mix needs and see if you can drop some, or maybe use a blend of your Yamaha's and WH's. Put the Y's where the musician doesn't move and you want focused coverage. Put the Wedgehorns where people move around and you need broad clarity.

[Dantreige]

Do you have a way to RTA the wedges? Also, what are your starting points for e.q? Did you use the SPL chart to set the speakers "flat" to start?

You mentioned that the W10's go lower, that means that they are also using more power to reproduce those frequencies. That could be one reason that you seam to have less headroom/volume.

One more thing, Bill has stated that to eq the wedgehorns you should be running the FOH at the same time. (At least in the W8 version.) Are you doing this?

I hope you get it figured out. I am also planning some wedgehorns.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'm open to suggestions.

I'm sure it has a lot to do with your no-amp scenario. Getting vocals to cut through a mix means that they'll have a very different EQ shape than the mix they're trying to cut through. With the lack of amps providing most of the stage volume the only way I see a good result is separate EQ on the amps and the vocals.

[guitarkeys.com]

Bruce,

I think gdougherty's experiences would be my first guess as well.

I will say that once I get into 3 notches to tame feedback then I start looking at other factors that might be contributing. With the setup you describe it doesn't sound like the stage should have been a problem. I'm guessing you being a TX boy that you've ran monitors in a matchbox sized bar and done just fine as well.

A couple of things I would double check is to make sure what is in the monitors and at what level (one really hot tom mic can through you for a loop).

I would also make sure you don't have any reverb running in the monitors as that will present a problem as well.

Your last option is one mic and one monitor and just keep $%#%! with it until one of you surrenders...

Wish I could be more help.

Jamie

[Greg Plouvier]

There's a reason why there is not a single horn loaded wedge offered by any company out there and you've experienced it. Wide dispersion and uneven response is not something most people want in a wedge. You'd be better off with a compact neo 12/1 or an 8" with a coaxial 8" -


My.02

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There's a reason why there is not a single horn loaded wedge offered by any company out there and you've experienced it.

There's a reason why there are no horn loaded electric bass cabs too, or for that matter horn loaded anything that's affordable for the average musician. It's price. As for the OPs difficulty, it flies totally in the face of other W10 owners experience with them. For example, these:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... 13&t=15388

So IMO it's a matter of identifying the problem, then fixing it.

[Dantreige]

This is the only place I can find a SPL chart for the W10. http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... &start=180

[Bruce Weldy]

I appreciate all the replies.....maybe it would help to lay out the situation a little.

3 piece band - Drums, bass, guitar. Each has their own WH10.

2 vocal mics.
Bass and guitar run direct
Kick and toms are triggered.
Snare, hat, OH mic'd.

As you can see, there is very little in the way of open mics in the monitors - just the vocals and a touch of snare. Everything else is direct.

Feedback is coming from vocal mics. Monitors are 180 degrees off axis to the mics.

I didn't take the reverb out of the monitors, but that can be a source of feedback - I'll certainly give that a shot too.

I may be trying to use them in the wrong application. In our setup, tight dispersion control isn't a problem. The drummer sits in one place and the bass player and I sing, so we don't stray far at all.

I don't think trying to EQ the vocal and the instruments separately in the monitors is feasible. I essentially want the monitors to mimic the FOH. The bass and drums are set and left the same. I want to be able to keep the vocal mix and guitar volume in check.

As far as setting the monitors with the mains up, that certainly makes a difference in the low end, but that's not where my problem is. Getting the monitors sounding good by themselves and then adding the mains is just icing on the low end.

Don't get me wrong, it's not horrible - but it's not as good as it was before, and I want it to be better (a lot of work goes into these things - way more than either subs or OTs).

Bill has said that these are designed to accentuate the vocal range, and that may be my problem - I'm trying to get a flatter response that they are designed for.

But, they do look damn impressive!

[Greg Plouvier]

There's a reason why there is not a single horn loaded wedge offered by any company out there

Oh I see Danley does have one

[Haysus]

I don't think trying to EQ the vocal and the instruments separately in the monitors is feasible. I essentially want the monitors to mimic the FOH. The bass and drums are set and left the same. I want to be able to keep the vocal mix and guitar volume in check.

FOH I hope a guitar and vocal mic are EQ'd different.

I would find a way to check the response of your WH10 first then have another go at it. Seeing sliders cut and boosted different from what you may be used to and can trick your ears.

[Dan30]

What mics are you using?

[Bruce Weldy]

FOH I hope a guitar and vocal mic are EQ'd different.

I assume Bill was talking about notching the vocals as a subgroup and the instuments as a separate subgroup in the monitors.

Actually, we just have this big giant Y-cable that every mic goes into then that goes straight to one channel of the mixer.....we need less channels that way.....what's EQ?

[Bruce Weldy]

What mics are you using?

I use a 30 yr old EV PL77 condenser. Sounds great and never had feed back with the old monitors.

Bass player uses a brand new Audix - I think it's one of the OM models, supposed to be like a 58. That's where most of the trouble is. I'm checking which model, but it looks like they all are hypercardioid.

[Dantreige]

I've always had problems with SM58's feeding back. I know that they are the "standard" vocal mic, but it does not make me want to throw them at the wall any less.

I sure hope you get this figured out. I have been using the same yammies in the band that I recently joined. No backline. Just a bass and a sansamp to the monitor. I like it, and it sounds great on stage. I was hoping the W10 would be a good replacement as well. Those yamahas are friggin heavy!