Wedgehorn 10 Review

[gdougherty]

Putting the mics 180 degrees behind the axis of the mic is only a problem if the back of the mic is aimed down at the monitor. If it's aimed parallel to the floor, the monitor is typically within the rejection pattern of the mic. That said, maybe try angling the monitors so that the coverage pattern doesn't cross to the other monitor as much.

Also, the WH is going to have wide dispersion all over the place, meaning you may also have more reflections coming back into the mic off walls and ceilings than you did with the Yamaha's. In this case, the WH may not be your best bet, at least not with melded tweeter arrays.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Also, the WH is going to have wide dispersion all over the place, meaning you may also have more reflections coming back into the mic off walls and ceilings than you did with the Yamaha's. In this case, the WH may not be your best bet, at least not with melded tweeter arrays.

The dispersion of the melded array wouldn't cause that problem. If anything wider dispersion would reduce reflective hot-spots, while the vertical pattern control definitely reduces ceiling bounce. Most users of Wedgehorns and W10s report getting higher levels without feedback.

[gdougherty]

Also, the WH is going to have wide dispersion all over the place, meaning you may also have more reflections coming back into the mic off walls and ceilings than you did with the Yamaha's. In this case, the WH may not be your best bet, at least not with melded tweeter arrays.

The dispersion of the melded array wouldn't cause that problem. If anything wider dispersion would reduce reflective hot-spots, while the vertical pattern control definitely reduces ceiling bounce. Most users of Wedgehorns and W10s report getting higher levels without feedback.

All true, but reduced feedback in some situations could be for many different reasons and I've found that in other cases WH's feedback pretty easily. I love the weight compared to a big wedge and the Delta Pro 8 has been a really nice upgrade on my WH8's. Had a band today comment on how they loved being able to hear each other so well with just a simple blend in 3 monitors across the front. I've finally got a driver and eq that I'm happy with. The band right before the compliments gave me a few fits of feedback that I had to deal with because of the broad pattern across a number of vocalists.

Would it be possible to design something similar to Danley's horn loaded 8 that doesn't need as severe an eq adjustment to sound natural? That'd be my ideal, smaller size of the WH8 but designed for a full-range application.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Would it be possible to design something similar to Danley's horn loaded 8 that doesn't need as severe an eq adjustment to sound natural? That'd be my ideal, smaller size of the WH8 but designed for a full-range application.

Not without a major sacrifice in sensitivity. Small, low, loud: pick two. You can't have all three. The Danley SH-LPM runs with only 95dB sensitivity. But what do you expect for only $1,995?

[Mike Taylor]

Bruce,

Did he buy the Audix from a local dealer, or on-line? There has been a rash of fakes lately, from on-line dealers, both Audix and Shure that look and feel exactly like their namesakes, but the elements are not even close to what the real ones are. If it's a fakethat could be the problem.

Mike

[Bruce Weldy]

Bruce,

Did he buy the Audix from a local dealer, or on-line? There has been a rash of fakes lately, from on-line dealers, both Audix and Shure that look and feel exactly like their namesakes, but the elements are not even close to what the real ones are. If it's a fakethat could be the problem.

Mike

He bought it at the local music store.....(we only have one in this town).

And, we didn't have nearly the problems with it before.

[Bruce Weldy]

Last night was the third, and I'm afraid, final test for the WH10s for the band.

I was able to get the feedback under control through EQ, positioning, and taking reverb out of the monitors. However, in order to get the vocals right - the guitar sounds honky and bass lacks definition.

The truth is - I've come to the conclusion that these boxes are just too smooth sounding for running the whole band through them with no back line. I can play recorded music through them and they sound great - pretty much like the OT12s with more bottom end. Although they go lower than the Yamahas that we were using, the bass guitar has lost definition.

It would probably be a whole different situation with back line support to give the punch (that probably means distortion and harmonics).

The other two members of the band were relieved when I told 'em I was giving up on the experiment. They hung in there for 3 less-than-stellar-sounding gigs while I tried to fix things. The Yamahas are punchy and in your face....just a lot easier to hear the bottom end definition even they don't go as low.

With using a back line, I have no doubt that these would be wonderful for vocal monitoring and adding some support to the instruments.

I absolutely hate that it's come to this as this was a difficult and time-consuming build - and I don't like to fail. But, it looks like I struck out.

[Radian]

Was this experiment run with all three WH's each time? And you were trying to run down into the bass frequencies, ie full range?

If so, with three cabs placed somewhere's on stage, have you considered their bass response canceling each other out to some degree?

The reason I bring this up is because this same thing happens all the time in when guys, new to home theater, [and I'm certainly not implying you are] try running their 5.1 system on "large" sending all 5-7 speakers a full range sound...They end up with all sorts of bass-related issues.

Although it'd be kinda a waste of cab to neuter the WH10's by high-passing them somewhere's above 100Hz and using a separate sub, I'd be willing to bet it would clean things up a bit in the absence of a back line. That, or I'm talking out of my rear end as I have no live-sound experience. Just brain storming

[Gregory East]

I hope you have taken the sub bass out of the monitors. If not, it would be small wonder the bass is hokey. The yamahas probably don't make anything low enough to compete and cancel with the subs.

What gear do you run? Surely it wouldn't take much of an investment to get seperate monitor EQ on the guitars and vocals?

[Dantreige]

That's too bad Bruce. I was hoping you'd get that figured out.

I would not give up yet. Beg and borrow an RTA and try to find what the differance is between the two. It might just be a few frequencies that are causing the precieved muddiness. Like others have said, the fact the W10's go lower might be the problem. I would bet that it's something below 125 that is causing the muddiness.

[Bruce Weldy]

I hope you have taken the sub bass out of the monitors. If not, it would be small wonder the bass is hokey. The yamahas probably don't make anything low enough to compete and cancel with the subs.

What gear do you run? Surely it wouldn't take much of an investment to get seperate monitor EQ on the guitars and vocals?

Yes, I've EQ'd out everything below 50hz on the 1/3 octave. And since nothing goes lower than the 41hz of the low E on the bass....there's nothing really low here.

And how exactly would you return the two different EQ'd signals to the single amp that runs the monitors? Not to mention that it would destroy the integrity of the mix in relation to the mains.....gotta' hear what's going on out front....and EQ does effect (perceived) volume.

But, I'm more convinced that no amount of EQ is going to change the sound of the box. I'm not saying that the box doesn't sound good, just that it sounds different from the Yamahas and unfortunately, that difference is what's missing to get the sound that I need.

On the positive side, one of our regular followers said the the mains sounded the best they have ever been. I just want it to sound good on stage too. It is hard to play well when it just doesn't sound right.

[Bruce Weldy]

That's too bad Bruce. I was hoping you'd get that figured out.

I would not give up yet. Beg and borrow an RTA and try to find what the differance is between the two. It might just be a few frequencies that are causing the precieved muddiness. Like others have said, the fact the W10's go lower might be the problem. I would bet that it's something below 125 that is causing the muddiness.

Actually, it seems to be in the 300-400 range as far as the guitar is concerned....when I boost that the guitar gets better, but the vocals go to hell. And I'm sure that definition of the bass is effected when I pull those back to get the vocals palatable.

Monitors shouldn't be that hard to EQ. Having to RTA them everytime you go someplace new would be a real pain. And there just isn't the time available before a gig to spend on monitors - not when it is usually a 30 second fix to get 'em sounding good.

My reason for building the WH10s was never because we were unhappy with the sound of the Yamahas, but rather to lower the weight and hopefully add a little more bottom end.....of course, I kinda' wanted an entire DIY system (yes, ego does play some part in this for all of us).

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Actually, it seems to be in the 300-400 range as far as the guitar is concerned....when I boost that the guitar gets better, but the vocals go to hell. And I'm sure that definition of the bass is effected when I pull those back to get the vocals palatable.
.

That's why to do what you want to do separate EQ for the instruments and vocals is a must. If your system doesn't have that capability there's really no solution as I see it.

[Bruce Weldy]

Actually, it seems to be in the 300-400 range as far as the guitar is concerned....when I boost that the guitar gets better, but the vocals go to hell. And I'm sure that definition of the bass is effected when I pull those back to get the vocals palatable.
.

That's why to do what you want to do separate EQ for the instruments and vocals is a must. If your system doesn't have that capability there's really no solution as I see it.

How exactly would you do that? I can certainly send the vocals out of one aux and the instruments out of another to separate EQs, but then what - a Y-cable from there to the amp to put 'em back together?

I don't know of any system that does what you are suggesting. You could do it by inserting EQ on sub-groups, but I've never seen sub-groups that can be sent to an aux send.....at least not on a sub-$10,000 board.

What am I missing here?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

How exactly would you do that?

Using an insert on a group.

I've never seen sub-groups that can be sent to an aux send.....at least not on a sub-$10,000 board.

I know. As we've both already noted the issue stems from your not having any backline, and getting around the limitations that imposes means what you save on not having a backline must be accounted for elsewhere.