srs question, direct radiators vs horns

[sine143]

I've looked at curves and whatnot but as far as DnB goes, I guess I was just talking about..... *important* locations of content (just dont call me out on that hahahaha).

I picked this song cause it was my last played track lol....

but anyways, if I play this track, and turn my midrange eq allll the way down, the difference is not as severe as the turning of either the bass eq or the high eq. You lose some meat in the claps, the impact of the kicks, and the lower ranges of the hats. The difference is definitly there, but in comparison to cutting the highs (hands over ears sound), or the bass...



EDIT

Basically all I'm trying to say is maybe DnB (mostly) and dubstep (only sort of) kind of evolved.... to fit into the nook that existed during their origin. Old school jungle became hugely popular in the early 90s, and although I'm not really qualified to make any propsed assumptions about technology at that time (I mean... I was barely born. I'll do it anyways ) I guess I'd assume that direct radiators were the norm (and still are kind of) for most of your average UK nightclub/bar.

We talked about it in the david floorstander folder. People were mastering tracks on a standard bookcase speakers... I feel like it might be feasible to say that early producers could have been doing the same thing. And thats how we got to the sound we hear today (in a more refined manner).

maybe?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The price we pay for super high fidelity clean bass is a few more and larger cabinets, but I think it is well worth it.
.

We may use larger cabs but we don't use more of them, we use fewer. If you want to get the harmonic content that direct radiator subs have it's not a problem, just goose your EQ in the bandwidth where that content lies: above 100Hz. You will get the same result, just from a different source, your tops, which is where +100Hz is supposed to come from.

[SeisTres]

The price we pay for super high fidelity clean bass is a few more and larger cabinets, but I think it is well worth it.
.

We may use larger cabs but we don't use more of them, we use fewer. If you want to get the harmonic content that direct radiator subs have it's not a problem, just goose your EQ in the bandwidth where that content lies: above 100Hz. You will get the same result, just from a different source, your tops, which is where +100Hz is supposed to come from.

Once I have the foundation settled, I wouldn't be opposed to experimenting with some creative eqing to meet in the middle. I just really don't want to upset the tonal balance too much.



But, doing this at least boosts signal that is actually there instead of creating it through resonance and distortion.

Just to be the prick in this thread, I actually much prefer the DiRa instead of horns for any of the electronic genres. Since the focus of the song is not really the midranges, it's more the low's and the high's, having that added harmonic distortion from the lower octaves is very pleasing. The only reason I would use horns in this situation is to cover the lowest of sub bass, but after that, DiRa would be my choice. However, for any other genre out there( and ESPECIALLY rock) horns own. but of course, the thing that dominates the track on other genres is the midranges, be it the voices, piano, guitar, or the bass' upper harmonics.

But really, for the electronic stuff, I'd still pick DiRa.

And for reference, here's a commercial 18" so ya'll can compare the distortion (which even at 10% is ridiculously high)
http://www.peavey.com/assets/literature ... 6560_5.pdf

And even though they can reach lower than even my t18, have a freaking hump even bigger than my titans, and suck power like cool aid, I still like the way they sound.
go figure.

DISCLAIMER: the above opinion is HIGHLY subjective
But hey, I'll apply my definition for a good guitar tone: If it sounds good, then it's good.

[Radian]

Adding in harmonic content in the digital domain using an exciter. (seems to be frequently referred to as adding "punch" or "attack") Skip to 1:21

This is a process you could use to get horns to sound like direct radiators for techno without the associated penalties. Of course this was an example using mixing software, but hardware boxes can be had that accomplish the same thing. You can bet desirable electronica artist-types are probably packing one of these or the like. The video does a good job showing how the harmonics manifest themselves as subsequent, evenly spaced peaks, higher in frequency than the fundamental bass note. To get the desired sound of that Peavey sub, let's say, I'd start by selecting a bandpass from 60-70Hz as the drivers, then have the exciter output a synthesized harmonic in the 120-140 and 220-280 ranges 1.5 dB and 3 dB respectively below the input signal level. The nice thing about the DSP is that it only tracks the driving frequencies. You can isolate certain frequencies and use them solely to trigger effects. ....and you can turn it off when you want to.Doing the same thing using EQ would save you a few hundred bucks. If you can read this, you don't need glasses.

[la malta]

Justin, after the compliment you gave me on my direct radiators the last show you saw me at and this post about these yorkvilles, remember (not that you probably don't know) that neither mine or these yorkvilles are probably capable of outputting much below 30hz. I high pass my amp at 30hz recently for this reason and I don't notice a difference.

Consider also that when I designed my vented direct radiators it told me the driver will reach xmax around 400w somewhere with a 30-40hz signal. Knowing that my QSC 4050hd is capable of outputting much more than and that I load all 4 cabs to a single channel for a 2 ohm load recently (which adds more power and arguably more distortion), and that I drive that thing to just below clipping EVERY show, god knows how much distortion is actually produced by the inherent THD of the direct radiators on top of the fact that they are playing non-linearly so outside of xmax. I suspect this is also the reason why I have had problems with the tinsel leads going into the voice coils snapping due to exceeding xmax ("constantly bent paper clip" effect) and have had to solder little jumpers to get them in working order again.

Interestingly, I still think it sounded excellent this saturday night on Calumet for basha's drum and bass night, which I guess is where I am at with this topic.

I'm not qualified to dispute claims that horns are cleaner, more efficient and play lower for similar sized cabs than nearly all direct radiators and I have no qualms ceding horns as superior speakers on all these fronts. But when I finish these four 18" wide T48s and compare them to my direct radiators, the focus of the comparison will 100% be on how they sound with electronic music because that is what I have catered to 90% so far. I'm concerned about work I'm putting in that I may find fruitless, and I may very well not like the sound of the Titans, especially on the DnB and dubstep tip when I feel like our subs are instruments in themselves because of the sheer heavy focus on bass.

I REALLY REALLY want to finish these T48s and find them better performers than my direct radiators for electronic music. I guess I'll find out in a few weeks.

[SeisTres]

Adding in harmonic content in the digital domain using an exciter. (seems to be frequently referred to as adding "punch" or "attack") Skip to 1:21.


Doing the same thing using EQ would save you a few hundred bucks.

Wow, I've never seen that, but who knows, I had never really thought of adding the upper harmonics with an exciter.

And yeah, i tried boosting the eq, and still not the same thing. You still get clean sound at higher levels. At different frequencies, which if boosted enough, it becomes VERY distracting. Unlike direct radiator subs, if you just boost the bass with horns and overpower the the other frequencies, it doesn't sound heavier or more "bassy" but then you just notice everything isn't balanced.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

And yeah, i tried boosting the eq, and still not the same thing. You still get clean sound at higher levels.

You will with our tops. If you goose the EQ with direct radiating tops they'll get dirtier, for the same reason that direct radiating subs are dirtier than ours. If you must make things sound bad to sound good a harmonic exciter is the ticket. One with different bandwidths is necessary, as single band models only create extra high frequency harmonics, like above 5khz.

[SeisTres]

And yeah, i tried boosting the eq, and still not the same thing. You still get clean sound at higher levels.

You will with our tops. If you goose the EQ with direct radiating tops they'll get dirtier, for the same reason that direct radiating subs are dirtier than ours. If you must make things sound bad to sound good a harmonic exciter is the ticket. One with different bandwidths is necessary, as single band models only create extra high frequency harmonics, like above 5khz.

in that case nevermind, I thought that with regular exciters you could pick the frequency but looking at my multi effects manual i think that would be a no go. But for tops, I think that not even electronic music benefits from a dirtier sound there.

But i think this is one of the main reason that horns are usually said to "throw" the sound since at very far distances the folded horns and direct radiators start to sound alike. But i think that until the electronic genre's mixdowns are done on a system running folded horns, it will be "optimized" for direct radiator subs. but for anything else, folded horns have almost every advantage.

[SeisTres]

Hmm, so it seems sonic exciter+horns=better than direct radiators?

Go go gadget subjective-o-meter.

oh the irony! Building a super clean sub only to use an exciter to intentionally make everything muddy


oh oh oh, you could unfold the horn to allow those higher frequencies to come out

[sine143]

^^^^

and thats what its all about. you cant polish a turd (unless you are the mythbusters).

[la malta]

"I'd have done T30s before T48s."

Just out of curiosity, why? They both have usable response to 30hz but the t48 is more efficient across the board. The only problem I see is the t48 is intended to be high passed at 35hz vs 30hz for the t30s, BUT the t30 is displacement limited to 300w. So, if I limited to 300w for a t48 with a 30hz high pass, I suspect it would be operating safely to 30hz but still be more efficient than a t30.

[sine143]

^

Yes

Dont ask me why i didnt go with it

[guitarkeys.com]

Odd that anyone would want to "color" the sound with a speaker selection. Is this a DJ thing?

Jamie

[sine143]

I think its just a musician thing.

Think about all the guys who mix drivers in their guitar cabs, or who use a specific cabinet because of its *tone*.

[guitarkeys.com]

I've heard some really bad *tone* from musicians (myself included). Guess it's a studio background, but seems if you make it accurate, you will better project it's intended tone. Amplification of bands, music, speakers, etc..

Unless you are a DJ creating your own "sound", then the speaker system could be thought of as your instrument, which would be a part of "creating the sound" rather than simply amplifying it to the masses. Hope that explains my DJ inquiry. Maybe? Maybe Not?

Side note. My 36" T48s sound increadibly clean and accurate which is why I like them. Bass that you feel you can effectively eq. With my front loaded 18", I felt I was back in the 80 with a single knob that said Bass.

Jamie