What's to chat about?

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1066 Post by Seth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:48 pm

Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:41 pm
Bruce Weldy wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:36 pm
Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 11:35 am



I don't think so (scratching my head though). If anything, using that trace and subtracting 6dB could be slightly generous in the lower end, making the LAB12 look a little better than a true 1 cab response chart. It seems to be completely reasonable method to identify a single cabs response, given the lack of a chart for a single cab... to me anyway.

Are you seeing something I'm not. It's completely possible I'm overlooking something (again LOL).
I think you missed his point......the black line on the graph is for a BFM speaker. The blue
line is for a Danley Lab sub - not a BFM speaker with a Lab12 in it.
The black line is what I used. The blue line is (obviously) of no use to the conversation. Or, at least I thought is was obvious. I should have been more specific. My mistake.

Here it is within the context of where I pulled it from
Screenshot (122).png

Two 30" LAB12 loaded T39's...

Subtract 6dB to identify the values for a single cab. No?

Wait... Aw Shit! It doesn't state that the T39's are LAB loaded... Crap.

You're guys are right again. Another oversite on my part.

Bill, what driver is in the cab in this comparison?
Screenshot (122).png
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1067 Post by Seth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:01 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:57 am
...I feel better off using peak output readings, and not worrying about watts at all.
Again, because watts is a calculation you can't make in the middle of a gig unless you can do so in a time that makes the calculation have relevance.
Calculating spl at distance seems to me as more the type of thing you'd do before choosing a cab design (to build or buy) or prior to accepting a gig to ensure you have enough rig.

Personally, I don't use average sensitivity. I use the SPL figure from the lowest point in the usable frequency range.

This spreadsheet calculation illustrates 4 v-plated 30" T39's (3012LF loaded) compared to 2 JBL SRX728S. It indicates that the T39's will meet the required output all the way down to 40HZ and the JBL SRX728S's will not.
Screenshot (120).png
And someone might be interested in knowing the required power to reach their goals, especially if they are limited to a single mains power supply circuit. If they were considering the JBL as an option, it would take 4 cabs to get the required power under the RMS power rating at 1472 watts per cab to meet the same SPL/distance requirements... 5890 watts total. I'm not entirely certain a single circuit would handle that without popping the breaker. While the 4x T39 option requires less than 1000w and still has about 2dB headroom before the limiter ( I think more is ideal. But, just for the sake of illustration) and the JBL is just about at it's RMS rating with only 0.4dB to spare.
Screenshot (121).png
That's eight 18" drivers on nearly 6000 watts to match the output of four 12" drivers on less than 1000... further demonstrating the "power" of cab sensitivity.

And, yes... this calculation does not take into account the effects of power compression. But, I'd venture a guess that the T39's at about half their RMS rating would suffer less than the JBL's essentially at their RMS rating. Just a hunch though. :)
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1068 Post by Bruce Weldy » Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:57 pm

Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:48 pm


Bill, what driver is in the cab in this comparison?[/size][/b]
Screenshot (122).png
Because these were done years ago, I would assume the graph is of 3012LF cabs as the Labs weren't an option then.

6 - T39 4-25" 2-22" 3012LF
4 - OT12 2512 Melded/NSD2005
1 - T24
2 - XF210


"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1069 Post by Seth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:37 pm

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 2:57 pm
Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:48 pm


Bill, what driver is in the cab in this comparison?[/size][/b]
Screenshot (122).png
Because these were done years ago, I would assume the graph is of 3012LF cabs as the Labs weren't an option then.
The LAB's had to at least be an option on the market when that specific graph was made. Otherwise, the LAB Sub wouldn't exist to compare to. Maybe before it was an option in the T39 plans perhaps.

Still curious what driver it is. It doesn't resemble the other 3012LF T39 traces. The closest thing seems to be an S2012. I'm going to hold my breath until I get a confirmation! LOL
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1070 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice » Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:59 pm

The LAB 12 was only added to the T39 and other plans as an option when neo prices went through the roof and for a time it was cheaper than the 3012LF. The LAB Sub design went back at least ten years before that.

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1071 Post by Seth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:09 pm

Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:01 pm
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:57 am
...I feel better off using peak output readings, and not worrying about watts at all.
Again, because watts is a calculation you can't make in the middle of a gig unless you can do so in a time that makes the calculation have relevance.
Calculating spl at distance seems to me as more the type of thing you'd do before choosing a cab design (to build or buy) or prior to accepting a gig to ensure you have enough rig.

Personally, I don't use average sensitivity. I use the SPL figure from the lowest point in the usable frequency range.

This spreadsheet calculation illustrates 4 v-plated 30" T39's (3012LF loaded) compared to 2 JBL SRX728S. It indicates that the T39's will meet the required output all the way down to 40HZ and the JBL SRX728S's will not.
Screenshot (120).png

And someone might be interested in knowing the required power to reach their goals, especially if they are limited to a single mains power supply circuit. If they were considering the JBL as an option, it would take 4 cabs to get the required power under the RMS power rating at 1472 watts per cab to meet the same SPL/distance requirements... 5890 watts total. I'm not entirely certain a single circuit would handle that without popping the breaker. While the 4x T39 option requires less than 1000w and still has about 2dB headroom before the limiter ( I think more is ideal. But, just for the sake of illustration) and the JBL is just about at it's RMS rating with only 0.4dB to spare.

Screenshot (121).png

That's eight 18" drivers on nearly 6000 watts to match the output of four 12" drivers on less than 1000... further demonstrating the "power" of cab sensitivity.

And, yes... this calculation does not take into account the effects of power compression. But, I'd venture a guess that the T39's at about half their RMS rating would suffer less than the JBL's essentially at their RMS rating. Just a hunch though. :)
Quoting my own post here to clarify for those who may not be aware. When I say 6000 watts, what that means is amplifiers would need to be rated to provide that much power. The actual power depends on the drivers impedance at that frequency, as it varies widely at different frequencies.

"1472 watt's" per cab actually equates to 77volts based on a nominal 4 ohm load (2 8 ohm drivers in parallel per JBL cab). If, for instance, the cab is actually 10ohms at 40Hz, the resultant power (watts) would be 593 watts per cab or 2372 watts for all 4 cabs. If the amplifiers are 75% efficient, you could expect it to draw roughly 3162 watts from the power grid... about 26 amps at 120v or 13 amps at 240v. If it's just a quick pulse, it may not trip a 15/7.5 amp breaker. If it's a constant 40Hz tone, it likely would based on those made up assumptions. That's why I'm uncertain if a single circuit would handle it or not. It may if the circumstances are right. But, it's certainly pushing the boundaries of a single circuit, especially if everything else needed for the gig has to be on the same circuit too.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1072 Post by Seth » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:14 pm

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 4:59 pm
The LAB 12 was only added to the T39 and other plans as an option when neo prices went through the roof and for a time it was cheaper than the 3012LF. The LAB Sub design went back at least ten years before that.
Good to know :thumbsup:

So, which driver is loaded in the T39's for this trace?
Image
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1073 Post by Grant Bunter » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm

Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:01 pm
Calculating spl at distance seems to me as more the type of thing you'd do before choosing a cab design (to build or buy) or prior to accepting a gig to ensure you have enough rig.
You can add/build/use more cabs to ensure you can provide stated SPL, sure.
I certainly didn't choose the T39 on a single (or even multiple) cab SPL basis. I chose it based on content to be played, pack size and purpose.
That I can add more cabs and raise SPL is a good thing.
You may also be given a limit of SPL at a venue which you can't (or shouldn't) exceed.
Seth wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 1:01 pm
Personally, I don't use average sensitivity. I use the SPL figure from the lowest point in the usable frequency range.
Neither do I use average sensitivity, as stated above, I use peak SPL readings.
Using SPL readings from the lowest point in the useable frequency range though is fraught with danger (unless there is a lot of content there), at least from the Noise pollution point of view, as the SPL will probably be higher above that point.
Since the only thing the investigator is interested in is the number on their SPL meter screen, it can be pretty hard to argue the science after the reading is taken.
Seth wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:41 pm
If I subtract 6dB from the same points on that plot, I get results that are very similar to the other plot anyway. Do it yourself if you don't believe it:
With the transposed LAB12 results, the 3012LF is still considerably ahead
+3dB at 45HZ, +5dB at 50Hz, +5dB at 60Hz, +5 dB at 70Hz

...and look to be slightly worse than the numbers I came up with for the Delta 12LFA:
+3dB at 45HZ, +4dB at 50Hz, 5dB at 60Hz, 3-4ish dB at 70Hz
You seem to be wanting to prove something here that just may not be the case.
As it says on the T39 SPL chart page, the response charts of the S2010 and 3012lf "aren't all that different", and go on to say it's the voltage displacement limits that are different.
Can one sit down and nut out the variances between the 2 drivers at a given frequency? Sure.
But they're not "all that different" sums it up pretty well.
Similarly, if it's said the 3012lf and the lab12 are "much the same", well to me, that's kinda like accepting that they're not all that different.
I certainly wouldn't oppose the designer in suggesting the 3102lf is significantly better than the lab 12.

I wish I knew where to point you in this. Something is being missed...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1074 Post by NukePooch » Sat Sep 18, 2021 9:01 am

Bruce Weldy wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:47 pm

Grasshopper, you have much to learn. When a musician asks for more monitor - hover your hand over the knob or the tablet without doing anything - 9 times out of 10, they'll say, "Great! Right there!" Once again, their eyes tell their ears that something happened. :mrgreen:
This. It's also important to lean and look. Lean over the board, and look at the knobs.
Built:
4 Jack 112L- 3012HO, melded array
17.5 wide AutoTuba with Infinity 860w
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2 T48 Slims (15" wide) with 3012LF
4 T48 Fattys (32" wide) with 3015LF

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1075 Post by Seth » Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:31 am

I'm really stumped on how to reply to this
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm
...You seem to be wanting to prove something here that just may not be the case...
I was pretty clear and bold in admitting and owning up to my mistake. I'm not sure why you felt this needed to be said.

Image
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1076 Post by Seth » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:58 pm

There... got that off my chest. Let's move on.
Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm
I certainly didn't choose the T39 on a single (or even multiple) cab SPL basis. I chose it based on content to be played, pack size and purpose.
That I can add more cabs and raise SPL is a good thing.
You may also be given a limit of SPL at a venue which you can't (or shouldn't) exceed.
Content, pack size, and purpose only? Is it pure luck that you chose to build a design that's uniquely efficient/high sensitivity?

I look forward to having gigs with SPL limits... and being able to handily surpass them.
Neither do I use average sensitivity, as stated above, I use peak SPL readings.
Using SPL readings from the lowest point in the useable frequency range though is fraught with danger (unless there is a lot of content there), at least from the Noise pollution point of view, as the SPL will probably be higher above that point.
Since the only thing the investigator is interested in is the number on their SPL meter screen, it can be pretty hard to argue the science after the reading is taken.
I'm curious how you use and apply peak SPL readings. Could you tell me a little about that?

I understand the logic in saying SPL will likely be higher in the frequencies above the lowest. If a sound guy based overall volume on that of the lowest of lows, I could see that being a real issue. However, I'm having a little trouble envisioning someone actually doing that. To me, having a system that's tuned and capable of producing a specific volume at a given listening position for all needed frequencies, only means that it "can" do it. Doesn't necessarily mean that it does. Seems to me that would depend more on instrument EQing and/or how the main PA is EQ'd. If it's classic rock/folk/country, the bass guitar may not be EQ'd to accentuate the inherently low amplitude of the fundamentals. But, a more contemporary group or music style may push the bottom end up quite a bit giving really fat visceral bass in the mix.

I look forward to having gigs that would fall under governed and enforced SPL limits. I can only speak to that situation from book knowledge. Thanks to them using "A" weighted scale (at least here in the US) I imagine it would be pretty difficult to exceed the limits at the bottom of the useable scale and way easier to break out in the mid and high frequencies.

As it says on the T39 SPL chart page, the response charts of the S2010 and 3012lf "aren't all that different", and go on to say it's the voltage displacement limits that are different.
Can one sit down and nut out the variances between the 2 drivers at a given frequency? Sure.
But they're not "all that different" sums it up pretty well.
Similarly, if it's said the 3012lf and the lab12 are "much the same", well to me, that's kinda like accepting that they're not all that different.
I certainly wouldn't oppose the designer in suggesting the 3102lf is significantly better than the lab 12.
That all fine and well. I'd just like to see the measured results of what the difference actually is. Wouldn't you?
I wish I knew where to point you in this. Something is being missed...
You already did a great job at this and there's nothing that I can think of that's being missed beyond my mistaking the one graph as a LAB12 loaded T39 response. My bad. Good catch.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1077 Post by Grant Bunter » Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:57 pm

Oh FFS, the internet of things drives me nuts sometimes.
Go back, and read, then re read what I wrote.
Make sure you keep it all in context with the quote box.

I meant nothing at all about you, making mistakes, or errors.
I was simply trying to say (especially until you can find a chart that is lab12 based in a T39) to pull up for a second and say "hey, they're not all that different".
And given that, if you then find a difference, I'm wondering if the question should be "why am i finding the difference?" rather than "what is the value of that difference?"
Content, pack size, and purpose only? Is it pure luck that you chose to build a design that's uniquely efficient/high sensitivity?
Yep, sheer fluke. Hardly anyone who comes here will initially already know about sensitivity etc.
I was told that was the criteria I should use. And I still reckon it's the best advice to make a decision on subs.
I'm curious how you use and apply peak SPL readings. Could you tell me a little about that?
Easy as. I'm only interested in knowing SPL at 1 metre. I measure Peak SPL at the mixing position, which is always a multiple of doubling from FOH (usually 32m) to do rough and ready calculation about how loud the PA is.
I'm not concerned with what frequency is causing that reading...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1078 Post by Seth » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:25 pm

Well, none the less... I still think it's a very interesting observation you brought up, about two S2010s and one 3012LF reportedly having the same output potential based on voltage limits, even though a single 3012LF has way more Vd than two S2010's. If that's accurate, it goes toward supporting the belief that a LAB12 might not have as much on a 3012LF as it may seem if one were comparing Vd specs.

I'll be very interested in seeing what the real world results are between some of these drivers once I get the next T39's assembled. I'm not entirely sure if I'm curious enough to order 2-4 LAB12's just to see how they compare or not. I suppose I could delegate them to a Tuba build afterward. We'll see.

I can't say I had the same reverence for the value of a speaker cab's sensitivity that I do now, but it's something I've been a fan of since the 1990's. I can't recall whether it was Klipsch or Cerwin Vega first, but somehow I became aware of sensitivity and those were the two names I remember as having the highest sensitivities back then for home stereo stuff. I really wish I could recall what the first influence was. A friend of mine's dad had some corner horns back then and I remember him impressing on me that they can hit 140dB... The conviction and enthusiasm in his voice when he said it obviously left an impression on me. Even though, back then, 140dB meant to me about as much as $1000 does to a toddler... no idea of it's value whatsoever.

I think a few more folks than you think are clued in before they come to this site. Certainly all the ones looking for a sub to go with their La Scalles are. Sub wise, with the majority of sealed and ported solutions typically being more compact than horns, there's really very little reason to build a horn sub if they didn't have the benefit of high sensitivity. Similarly, with the tops, without the sensitivity benefit there's little reason to build such a complex design. But, reasons being whatever they were or were not, you chose what you chose. And you chose well. :thumbsup:
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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Re: What's to chat about?

#1079 Post by Grant Bunter » Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:27 pm

Seth wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:25 pm
I think a few more folks than you think are clued in before they come to this site. Certainly all the ones looking for a sub to go with their La Scalles are. Sub wise, with the majority of sealed and ported solutions typically being more compact than horns, there's really very little reason to build a horn sub if they didn't have the benefit of high sensitivity. Similarly, with the tops, without the sensitivity benefit there's little reason to build such a complex design.
As long as the horn isn't to big, IMO there's a host of reasons to build them.
We do the work.
Because they're horns, the same or more output with less power, ie increased efficiency.
Lighter.
Overall build cost.

All these things sang out to me when I got here, because I'm a one man business that may get asked to provide services based on the generator I can bring with me. Throw in LED lighting and all of a sudden that is quite achievable in outback Australia.

I can't vouch for others, but I had no idea about sensitivity.
I now understand higher sensitivity in a cab is a good thing, but I doubt there is any sensitivity significance on a driver basis in horn loaded cabs...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" BP102 , 2 x 28" 3012lf.
WH8: x 3 with melded array.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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Seth
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Re: What's to chat about?

#1080 Post by Seth » Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:51 pm

Grant Bunter wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:16 pm
I certainly didn't choose the T39 on a single (or even multiple) cab SPL basis. I chose it based on content to be played, pack size and purpose.
Seth wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:58 pm
Content, pack size, and purpose only? Is it pure luck that you chose to build a design that's uniquely efficient/high sensitivity?
Grant Bunter wrote:
Sat Sep 18, 2021 3:57 pm
Yep, sheer fluke. Hardly anyone who comes here will initially already know about sensitivity etc
Seth wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:25 pm
...there's really very little reason to build a horn sub if they didn't have the benefit of high sensitivity...
Grant Bunter wrote:
Fri Sep 24, 2021 4:27 pm

Seth wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:25 pm
I think a few more folks than you think are clued in before they come to this site. Certainly all the ones looking for a sub to go with their La Scalles are. Sub wise, with the majority of sealed and ported solutions typically being more compact than horns, there's really very little reason to build a horn sub if they didn't have the benefit of high sensitivity. Similarly, with the tops, without the sensitivity benefit there's little reason to build such a complex design.
As long as the horn isn't to big, IMO there's a host of reasons to build them.
We do the work.
Because they're horns, the same or more output with less power, ie increased efficiency.
Lighter.
Overall build cost.

All these things sang out to me when I got here, because I'm a one man business that may get asked to provide services based on the generator I can bring with me. Throw in LED lighting and all of a sudden that is quite achievable in outback Australia.

I can't vouch for others, but I had no idea about sensitivity.
I now understand higher sensitivity in a cab is a good thing, but I doubt there is any sensitivity significance on a driver basis in horn loaded cabs...
Do you find the two emboldened phrases mean different things?

For a Simplex sub, we do the work, and I'm just guessing that a Simplex is probably lighter and likely costs less too.

So, again, there's really very little reason to build a horn sub if they didn't have the benefit of high sensitivity.

You're a smart guy Grant. I highly doubt you chose to build your T39's with complete ignorance of the prime benefit of horns. Matter of fact, you said as much in this post about generator power and "all these things sang to me when I got here". I'm not sure why you've been being unagreeable in the matter. Seems a silly thing to not acknowledge.

Monty Python, Holey Grail...
"Tis but a scratch"
"A scratch?! You're arm's off!"
'No it isn't"
"What's that then?"

Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded

Two 2x6 shorty SLA Pro's
One T39, 16", 3012LF loaded
Tall AutoTuba, 20" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421
TruckTuba, 8½" wide, 2x 8" MCM 55-2421

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