Behringer PMP5000

[DrDoug018]

Hi,

Anybody have any experience or opinions on this board for a six member rock/blues band?

http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/PMP5000.aspx

We are sorta re-doing our system based around our new subs (T39) and tops (DR250).

We will be replacing our existing eq, etc with either the DEQ/DCX 2496 or the DriveRack PA, but keeping our existing power amps (Carvin, Crown).

Thanks,

Doug

[BrentEvans]

First, it's a powered board. Why would you use it with existing power amps?

Second, stay away from Behringer mixers. I have one, it initiated its crap-out procedure in less than a year of sitting mostly unused in the box. If you must be in the $500-$600 price range, look for a used Yamaha O1V or perhaps at a Yamaha MG16 or MG206C in the analog world. Cal Mazzara at Full Compass gives great pricing, call him for a good deal.

Third (and most importantly) if you're spending close to $1000 already (A $500 mixer and $4-500 of processing) you can spend just a little more and have a SAC system running. I have a little over $1400 in my 24 channel rig, including the host PC, RME sound card, software, and interfaces with cabling. This will be a BIG step up from what you're planning, as all processing can be done in the box, you'll have far more flexibility, and your sound quality will be crazy better, at a cost that isn't much higher than an analog setup.

[DJPhatman]

Garbage mic pre-amps, and very noisy with lots of hiss.

If you must go with a powered mixer, I recommend the Yamaha EMX line. Decent mic pre's and quite quiet. I own 2 EMX-5000's.
Depending on how many inputs you need, and how many outputs, I think you would be much better off using a decent analog mixer and seperate amps. To use the DSP, you introduce an unbalanced line in and out (to and from the DSP) using the powered mixer, with the extra noise that the DRs will make obvious.

[DrDoug018]

First, it's a powered board. Why would you use it with existing power amps?

I don't imagine we would. The cost of the powered version is only about $50 more than the non-powered version and we thought for small coffee house types of gigs it might come in handy to not have to lug the amps and processors. I don't think we would use the on-board power all that often.

Second, stay away from Behringer mixers. I have one, it initiated its crap-out procedure in less than a year of sitting mostly unused in the box. If you must be in the $500-$600 price range, look for a used Yamaha O1V or perhaps at a Yamaha MG16 or MG206C in the analog world. Cal Mazzara at Full Compass gives great pricing, call him for a good deal.

OK - thanks Brent. I'll look into those. I've seen some posts somewhere on these boards on the Yamaha - I'll look those up too.

Third (and most importantly) if you're spending close to $1000 already (A $500 mixer and $4-500 of processing) you can spend just a little more and have a SAC system running. I have a little over $1400 in my 24 channel rig, including the host PC, RME sound card, software, and interfaces with cabling. This will be a BIG step up from what you're planning, as all processing can be done in the box, you'll have far more flexibility, and your sound quality will be crazy better, at a cost that isn't much higher than an analog setup.

Being the techno geek I am, this sounds like something I would really like. I have (tried to) follow the fairly long thread on the SAC system but I guess I just figured it was pretty complicated and was not sure how our sound man would take to it. I'll give it another look.

Thanks again,

Doug

[DrDoug018]

Garbage mic pre-amps, and very noisy with lots of hiss.

Well - OK then. I knew that some folks had strong feelings about Behringer gear.

If you must go with a powered mixer, I recommend the Yamaha EMX line. Decent mic pre's and quite quiet. I own 2 EMX-5000's.
Depending on how many inputs you need, and how many outputs, I think you would be much better off using a decent analog mixer and seperate amps. To use the DSP, you introduce an unbalanced line in and out (to and from the DSP) using the powered mixer, with the extra noise that the DRs will make obvious.

As I mentioned to Brent, the on-board power was more of an afterthought than anything else. Seemed like for a few extra bucks you had some back up power for small gigs or if one of your amps goes AWOL.

Simple analog mixer is probably fine for us but not nearly as sexy as a high-tech computer based approach

[BrentEvans]

Being the techno geek I am, this sounds like something I would really like. I have (tried to) follow the fairly long thread on the SAC system but I guess I just figured it was pretty complicated and was not sure how our sound man would take to it. I'll give it another look.

Download the demo (and manual) at http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com and visit the forum at http://www.sawstudiouser.com. The software interface isn't much more complex than an analog board (just more feature-rich). I have a (drafted) volunteer running the system at church, and he's had no trouble adjusting to it. He's a faders-and-mutes guy, we don't really have to do much adjusting during service other than that. You can do any other major setup things (changing verbs, etc) with scenes, if necessary. As long as he knows how to use a mouse, he's good to go.

Also, as far as tote-ability, my whole 24 channel rig (amps and all) fits quite comfortably in a 20 space rolling rack. I always just transport the PC separately when it's moved, becasue it's not moved much, but if you invested in a rack-mount PC case and a shock mount rack (more $$, of course), you roll 1 rack in, and plug mics into the front, speakers into the back. I can lift it myself with a bit of leverage, and it's an easy 2 person lift. There would even be enough room to store some extras (mic cables, monitor, etc),for travel if I moved it around a bit.

[DrDoug018]

Download the demo (and manual) at http://www.softwareaudioconsole.com and visit the forum at http://www.sawstudiouser.com. The software interface isn't much more complex than an analog board (just more feature-rich). I have a (drafted) volunteer running the system at church, and he's had no trouble adjusting to it. He's a faders-and-mutes guy, we don't really have to do much adjusting during service other than that. You can do any other major setup things (changing verbs, etc) with scenes, if necessary. As long as he knows how to use a mouse, he's good to go.

Also, as far as tote-ability, my whole 24 channel rig (amps and all) fits quite comfortably in a 20 space rolling rack. I always just transport the PC separately when it's moved, becasue it's not moved much, but if you invested in a rack-mount PC case and a shock mount rack (more $$, of course), you roll 1 rack in, and plug mics into the front, speakers into the back. I can lift it myself with a bit of leverage, and it's an easy 2 person lift. There would even be enough room to store some extras (mic cables, monitor, etc),for travel if I moved it around a bit.

Hi Brent,

Thanks for all the information. We are seriously interested in this system although not everyone in the band has drunk all their kool aid yet.

We are thinking our budget will be $1,000 not including the computer which I will probably build/source myself, and I have a couple of 17" flat screens around I can use for this. Could we put together a decent system for this amount? Would you be willing to recommend the appropriate pieces/parts that would work within this budget?

Thanks,

Doug

[BrentEvans]

With some patience, it can be done, depending on how many channels you need. The most expensive part of it is the interface. Some people have had success with the Profire Lightbridge which will handle up to 32 channels, but as a firewire solution, it is less than ideal. An interface from RME is better, current models being the HDSP9652 (24 ch I/O) and RayDat (32ch I/O). These, however, are quite expensive and would probably exceed the total budget if purchased new. I found the older model (DIGI9652) on Ebay pretty cheap, and it works great. There are (or were, anyway) a couple of these for sale in the classifieds section of the SAC forum for $175+ship, which is just a bit more than I paid for mine. If those are gone, they do show up on Ebay with some frequency. This is a PCI card, and you can stack multiples to get higher channel counts if needed. The differences between the HDSPs and DIGI series (other than software) is mainly that the newer HDSPs can achieve a 32 buffer size (.7ms minimum latency) and the DIGI series' minimum latency is 1.5ms. This is not an appreciable difference. I operate at 3x64 (which is 4.5ms latency) and I can't tell a difference, it sounds perfectly fine.

You'll also need an appropriate number of ADA8000 mic preamp/adat converter units. Each unit does 8 mic/line ins and 8 line outs. I recommend contacting Cal Masara at Full Compass by phone for any equipment you buy new, he cut me a great deal on the preamps ($165/ea shipped). I don't know if he can/will do this deal again, but Northern Sound also has them for just a bit more, so you're in the ballpark.

In any case, you're out $500 for SAC, about $330 for 2 converters, and $175+ for an interface. That's right at your $1000 mark. Add a few bucks for optical cables, etc, and you're rolling on an existing PC with sufficient specs.

If you need more info, let me know.

[gdougherty]

Doug, we can provide you some input here, but your SAC questions are probably best posed on the SAC forums. Many more SAC users and lots more experience on what does and doesn't work. Take some time to read through and catch up on everything. New version 2.2 is right around the corner.

[Scott Brochu]

Bang for the buck, Behringer is good and we all know there are better out there but for entry level or trying to get the most for your dollar I think they are great.
It's when you get serious about mixing, that's when you splurge for the better board.
What I have heard here on this forum is that who ever makes a high end mixer probably makes a pretty good entry level board. Mackie, Behringer and Peavey Do not (I Think) make large boards for PRO. But Yamaha does.
So I am actually looking at some from Yamaha myself and within the next yr I might take the plunge.
I use a 24 channel powered Behringer playing out in my band and had for about 4 yrs. It does the job...........but there are better ones out there like I mentioned above.
Good luck.

[DJPhatman]

Mackie, Behringer and Peavey Do not (I Think) make large boards for PRO.

They all make large format mixers, especially Mackie, but you won't see a Behringer product on a national act, unless they are the sponsers.
Yamaha has very good entry lever mixers. They are not as inexpensive as the Behringer, but are miles ahead in quality and reliability. Scour E-Bay, craigslist and any other online sale community for a used 16 to 20 channel Yamaha board. Don't pay more than $200 USD for it, 1/2 retail new.

[Scott Brochu]

Mackie, Behringer and Peavey Do not (I Think) make large boards for PRO.

They all make large format mixers, especially Mackie, but you won't see a Behringer product on a national act, unless they are the sponsers.
Yamaha has very good entry lever mixers. They are not as inexpensive as the Behringer, but are miles ahead in quality and reliability. Scour E-Bay, craigslist and any other online sale community for a used 16 to 20 channel Yamaha board. Don't pay more than $200 USD for it, 1/2 retail new.

Which board are you talking about? the ones I see are all 4-6 hundred range. They must be powered.

[DJPhatman]

$400 - $600 will buy you a brand new Yamaha MG 20 channel, and leave money left over. Read my post again, as I was refering to used boards.
This mixer is 20 channel, and has a USB connection for recording. A bit over $600, but handy if you want to record your performances.

[David Carter]

They must be powered.