Project No. 2

[BrentEvans]

Something happened last week that really floored me. My pastor approved an audio budget! This is a big deal for us, as the last major investment in our sound system was fifteen years ago, when they paid a "pro" to come do a complete install (something to the tune of $12k, I think). In any case, no major investments since then, and things are starting to, well, degrade. I'm going to be upgrading to a SAC rig (Thanks, StevenGenter!) and I may have the budget to replace the main speaker with a BFM system. I want to do this if it's at all possible, and I'm being given a fair amount of control over the project (which I should, considering I'm the piano player, the bass player, the sound man, and the music director, sometimes simultaneously). Currently, it's an OAP 15+horn (as pictured) and my "sub" is a thirty year old Peavey TNT130 bass amp being powered through its auxiliary speaker jack (the head is so dirty it's unusable). The "sub" (I feel so guilty calling it that) was my desperate invention to clean up the sound coming out of the mains for zero money. Believe it or not, it works well enough (wall loaded it, crossed at 80hz). It does exactly what a sub is supposed to, you can't tell it's there until you unplug it, but it's right behind my playing position, and I hear ALL the distortion. Overall, I can get more than enough volume, but the system has its fair share of squeaks and squawks (like when the pastor walks right in front of the speaker, as he's prone to do). I also have to EQ the snot out of it, as the speaker is horribly peaky. The room is 40 x 60 or so.

The normal suggestion solicitation question is applicable: Which cabs, placed where? Bear in mind that things need to be aesthetically pleasing to keep the senior saints happy. Program content is piano/bass/vox/choir and speech. EVERYTHING goes through the system. No amps allowed.

Thanks in advance!

Horrible Quality Pix:

Stage Area:

My keyboard hole (the "sub" is draped in blue behind it).

[attachment=3]PIC-0051.jpg[/attachment

[Tom Smit]

I don't know, guys...what do you think? How about a pair of DR200's w/melded arrays hanging in about the same location as the current cab? And then a T39 under the bench that is behind the pulpit/front of the choir? or are the short walls on either side of the pulpit going to inhibit the sound? A pair of WH's?
Brent-the short walls...is it possible for them to come down? That would open up the "stage" for skits, guest groups, etc, etc.....

TomS

[BrentEvans]

And then a T39 under the bench that is behind the pulpit/front of the choir?

Benches only have about 36" clearance side to side, and about 13" top to bottom. There is space, however, beside them, and I can move the pew beside the keyboard to corner load in that corner (didn't sound good with the existing "sub" but I dont' discount it). Could also go under the communion table if I make it look nice (I'm thinking white duratex and white (or blue) grill cloth).

Brent-the short walls...is it possible for them to come down? That would open up the "stage" for skits, guest groups, etc, etc.....

That would be a major remodel, and remove the handrails that some of our older folks need to hold onto to get up from the altar area. Also, those things never happen, so no justification for a major remodel.

How about a pair of DR200's w/melded arrays hanging in about the same location as the current cab?

That one had occurred to me, but one of the problems I'm trying to solve is the feedback from the lav mic that happens when he walks in front of the mains. Wouldn't that have the same problem?

Also, I'm more focused on the mains right now. The current Yorkville monitors are sufficient, and the majority of what goes through them is piano. The vocalists back off when they hear themselves.

Believe it or not, my seat at the keys is nearly the best one in the house, because it's so acoustically isolated. That's the main reason I haven't pushed to move on stage - nobody ever plays the real piano or the organ anymore.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

TLAH Pros on the rear wall, to the left and right corners. Pretty much just like those shown here:

[BrentEvans]

Bill, would the TLAHs work just as well if I put them closer to the frontline of the stage? There's an air return and a lighthouse in the locations you described, can't move either.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Bill, would the TLAHs work just as well if I put them closer to the frontline of the stage? There's an air return and a lighthouse in the locations you described, can't move either.

I'd have them on the walls to either side just behind the flags. What's there now I can't tell, pics are too fuzzy.

[BrentEvans]

Sorry about the pic quality, camera phones...

Putting anything on those walls is going to be a problem, between doors, shelves, signage, & air returns, and that paneling is not something they want drilled. I'm kind of limited to mounting to the drywall, as that can be filled and fixed later if necessary. Also, the ceilings are only 12' and if I read correctly, TLAH Proi s 6 feet tall, which would be partially obscured by the door on one side and wouldn't fit horizontally on the other side because of the door and shelf. I'm kind of limited on placement to the plane at the front of the stage, but I can go with stereo placement against the walls or center placement (if I can work out the feedback problem somehow). The chandeliers kind of prevent me from flying one cab over each pew section (which is what I'd much prefer).

A "Pro" version of SLA would be a perfect fit (in my mind), if it existed, becasue it would be low profile on each side, look nice, be easy to mount close to the wall, and I'm sure it would sound great if properly designed (which is of course way outside my league).

Also, what about subs? Not a lot required here, just the bottom of the bass and keyboard, but I want it to be right.

[Ron K]

That one had occurred to me, but one of the problems I'm trying to solve is the feedback from the lav mic that happens when he walks in front of the mains. Wouldn't that have the same problem?

Since you now have an audio budget to work with throw in a head mounted condenser mic so as to reduce the possibility of feedback from the roaming preacher.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=278414

There are also the ones available that are flesh tone so you can hardly see them.Those are usually omni directional and since they will be closer to the source better with feedback rejection then a lavaliere.

The Crown product above is great for reducing feedback even on loud rock stages.

With your available budget I'd say if you are going DIY with the speaker system it will leave you lots of room for purchasing good Mics.

[BrentEvans]

you now have an audio budget to work with throw in a head mounted condenser mic so as to reduce the possibility of feedback from the roaming preacher.

I agree, but, tried it, and he won't wear it. He said it makes him look too much like a "TV Preacher." If he didn't want to record the messages, I don't think he'd even wear a mic. I worship with some very conservative country folks, if ya'll haven't figured that'n out yet. Similarly, the keyboard has to stay off the stage, because some of the people who helped pay for the piano and organ still attend.

That said, the fact that I'm being given more or less a blank check for equipment comes with a great amount of trust to do the project right and make it sound good, and aesthetically appealing. I love my church, we're as close as family, and I wouldn't attend anywhere else, and despite the i get sometimes from trying to work with the desires of the group, I want to do this right for them.

With your available budget I'd say if you are going DIY with the speaker system it will leave you lots of room for purchasing good Mics.

I guess I should have specified what type of budget I'm on. The SAC rig will cost about $2500, I have to replace two 700mhz wireless mics, and whatever is left of $4000 or so, I can put toward speakers, amps, processors. Buying a new EP1500 and DCX2496 leaves me about $400 for speakers. I'm hoping to get tops and subs for that, with plan B being build the appropriate sub now, and install, and pay for the tops myself out of my bonuses this year. (Providing I get any, which isn't an affirmative).

Great idea though. Wish I could implement all the great ideas...

[Ron K]

Ahhh I see now.There's a fine line between doing what you know is correct and keeping everyone happy. I understand completely.That said if you make even a slight improvement given the constraints you're under I'm sure everyone will be happy.Sounds like a close knit group pretty much set in their ways.

My local parish (German Catholic) still only uses Live Choir Vocalists , no mics and a late 1800s pipe organ (restored a few years ago) and a drummer playing a small kit. They wont have it any other way. Everything from the alter is via stationary mounted condensers through old Shure 8" - 10" Vocal Master columns.Some distributed 8" community boxes underneath each of the stained glass windows each delayed. Church holds approx.1500 and is all stone and hardwood.

http://www.saintjohnpottsville.org/Default.asp





On the total flip side of traditional I was involved in an install for a local progressive christian church where the alter is a stage and a praise band plays through the entire service. Here the pastor wanted things loud and in your face. The format was mostly rock and roll done in praise style and their goal is to attract a younger congregation and keep them interested. Completely different than what I was used to hearing on a Sunday but hey if it works.... who am I to say any different.

[Mikey]

about $400 for speakers. I'm hoping to get tops and subs for that

A pair of DR200s with Beta8s and a T39 with a BP102 could be done for pretty close to your budget ... maybe $600. If, after buying everything else, you're a couple hundred bucks shy for the speakers, take-up a special collection on a Sunday morning, letting the congregation know what it's for and how much you'll need. If everyone kicks-in a couple bucks, you'll have the needed extra cash.

There seems to be room on the back wall for the DR200s, which you could actually attach to the ceiling if they don't want you to attach to the panelling. Replacing the table in front of the podium with a T39 seems like a reasonable thing to do. You could even put the doily, candles, and flowers on it.

[BrentEvans]

take-up a special collection on a Sunday morning, letting the congregation know what it's for and how much you'll need.

That's what we'll be doing, and our people will most likely give whatever is asked. When they start hearing the upgrades, they'll open up a bit more. It's going to take a while to raise the money anyway. Understand that we are a church of about 40 members total, about 15-20 work and give regularly. The rest are retired, children, etc. We support a pastor full time and over 40 missionaries monthly from $25-$200 each, as well as the normal expenses of a church. We are not wealthy, our people just believe in giving. This project is going to take everyone going over and above, but I think the results will be worth it.

There seems to be room on the back wall for the DR200s, which you could actually attach to the ceiling if they don't want you to attach to the panelling.

I'd love to do it that way but I'm conerned that the chandeliers would block the sound. Or vibrate from it.

Replacing the table in front of the podium with a T39 seems like a reasonable thing to do.

That table is bigger than it looks. Can't replace it really, but a T39 might just fit under it. I'll measure tonight, going to be over there anyway.



Ron, that's a gorgeous organ. I'd love a crack at somethink like that sometime. I think one of the most fun musical experiences I ever had was sneaking into the organ hall at my old university and playing for a while in the middle of the night. The bass was visceral.

organ_recital.jpg (117.2 KiB) Viewed 2555 times

[Ron K]

Nothing like cracking open that 16hz pipe full bore!

[BrentEvans]

It was moving. Literally.

For some reason, they started locking the performacne halls about halfway through my freshman year. I don't think there were any vandalism problems or anything, don't know why they did it. Maybe it had something to do with freshmen messing around on the expensive performance instruments. They had 9' Steinways all over the place in that school.

[Ron K]

Ohh those are absolutely gorgeous pianos. I can see why they would want to keep it locked up! The 9' concert grand is a real gem. Fun to try and mic correctly.