Kick Drum EQ questions

[Clint Gale]

I am needing a primer on how to get a kick drum to kick (like the kind you feel not just hear) and not be mush in the subs.

We tried out our T39's a few weeks ago and i got nothing but mushy bass from the kick and i couldn't clean it up any. At one point i had the bass cut at 75hz on the kick drum channel just to try and keep the resonance out of the subs.

Any tips would be much appriciated.

Subs in question are T39's 20" BP102 loaded. They were stacked as we didnt have room to V-couple.

Even with the mushy bass we still had the cops called on us.....twice....so we shut it down at midnight. (you would think a college town would be a bit more forgiving on a Friday night)

Thanks,
Clint

[Chris_Allen]

Could you start by saying which mic/mics you were using and their positions.

[Dave Non-Zero]

...and the mixer and PA settings etc. If you have two swept mids on the channel strip you have more of a chance to get it sounding right. Cant say im an expert tho. A lot depends on the drum itself and the tuning. Some kick drums you just cant get sounding good.

[Tim A]

...and the mixer and PA settings etc. If you have two swept mids on the channel strip you have more of a chance to get it sounding right. Cant say im an expert tho. A lot depends on the drum itself and the tuning. Some kick drums you just cant get sounding good.

+1. Even a single parametric will help. And in addition to what Chris said:

DRUM TUNING

I see guys sit and tune their drums before every show, but never touch the kick drum. Our drummer is guilty of this. And to be honest, most drummers have their kicks tuned so badly it's hard to get anything good out of the mic. I have had some luck moving the mic around to the batter head when I can't get a decent sound from the resonant head or inside the drum.

[Clint Gale]

Could you start by saying which mic/mics you were using and their positions.

Yup sorry, Kick mic is a Shure Beta 52A located center on resonance head. (no hole so i thought it would be best to center the mic to get the most movement from the head)

Mixer is an old CFX24 Mackie with only 3 eq parameters 1 being a sweepable mid. I had to use the mid channel to get rid of a ring at 100hz so it was at around -10db and the 80hz was flat as was the 12k.

[Dave Non-Zero]

Could you start by saying which mic/mics you were using and their positions.

Yup sorry, Kick mic is a Shure Beta 52A located center on resonance head. (no hole so i thought it would be best to center the mic to get the most movement from the head)

Mixer is an old CFX24 Mackie with only 3 eq parameters 1 being a sweepable mid. I had to use the mid channel to get rid of a ring at 100hz so it was at around -10db and the 80hz was flat as was the 12k.

If you are micing the resonant head then drum tuning is even more important. More likely to get low feedback too. I would recommend a hole to begin with! It makes it easier to get a punchy kick sound. you also get more of the upper 'click' from the beater if you are micing inside the drum, especially with a 52 which is a very bottom heavy mic. The beater cick helps the sound cut thru the mix better. If you cant cut a hole then I would use the FOH graphic to help get rid of that 100hz coz you really need the swept mid to take out some of the 200-300hz where that mud probably is. Cut by about 6db then sweep around the low mids to find where it cleans up the best. I usually use a second swept mid to boost a bit in the 5khz region to cut thru a bit more, depending on the style of music. Hope some of that helps. And if anyone has better ideas then i would love to hear any tips too!

[gdougherty]

Mic is fine. Start with kick tuning. Look online for good tuning guides. A good kick sound for micing is not necessarily what sounds impressive unmiced. Kind of flat, unreverberant and flappy as I recall.

Placement of the kick and subs may impact too. Indoors, especially. Could be on the verge of feedback.

Otherwise it needs to be clean and then you have to get the volume up. The kick itself will need to be mid 90db's before you really feel it.

What's the venue?

[Tim A]

(no hole so i thought it would be best to center the mic to get the most movement from the head)

Had that at a recent show, put the mic about 2" in from the rim. Drummer thought I was nuts, tried it, got all veklempt. Is was a nice, tight sound. Maybe not as deep as I would've liked, but it EQ'd very well.

[Scott Brochu]

With proper tuning, like Tim states and also choosing a good head, (this is what I have http://www.guitarcenter.com/Evans-EMAD- ... 1140178.gc )
and mic placement are all good to know for great sound.

something to read;
http://home.earthlink.net/~prof.sound/id6.html

hope it helps

[Chris_Allen]

Its always important to get the most consistent sound out of the mic position as it makes EQ'ing a lot easier. I'm not sure making a hole will help as that is more about sound preference, 2" from the rim is always good as the skin travel is minimised, almost like using a preprepared compressor.

If you don't want to put a hole in the skin and you want/need the click, you will probably have to run two mics, one on the beater side. Good news is that if you are only after the click, any cheap mic will do.

I always had trouble tuning the kick myself but I never really got much practice or time to experiment. It sounds sensible that keeping the sound tight and get the natural pitch you want out of the drum when it is coupled with the room environment, you'll already be on the right path to a great sounding kick.

I always found that a good sounding kick is a very natural process of sweeping the mids and the lows. It might be advisable to test out the process in the practice room. Bring along the kick drum and the mic and get the sound you like then move the kick in relation to the speakers/walls etc and start again - you'll soon learn how to dial in a good sound quickly.

The Beta 52 is a great kick mic, but I think it might be a little wasted if it isn't mounted internally.

As for the chest thump, this might be higher than you realise. Try 70-100Hz to get what you're after.

[Scott Brochu]

If you don't want to put a hole in the skin and you want/need the click, you will probably have to run two mics, one on the beater side. Good news is that if you are only after the click, any cheap mic will do.

Very true.

If doing this though, just trigger it. IMO

[Chris_Allen]

If doing this though, just trigger it. IMO

Or buy an electric kit

[Scott Brochu]

If doing this though, just trigger it. IMO

Or buy an electric kit

OH! Got me there

[Ron K]

Mic is fine. Start with kick tuning..... A good kick sound for micing is not necessarily what sounds impressive unmiced. Kind of flat, unreverberant and flappy as I recall.
The kick itself will need to be mid 90db's before you really feel it.

What's the venue?

Thats probably the best Ive ever heard someone describe what a good un-miced kick sound should be like.

At all costs please remove the boom from the drum and you will find it mics better and sounds better especially when you want to really make it pound!

Boomy kick drums sound like ass in the mix.

Dont bury the mic in the drum.2 inches inside the hole is plenty.Front and back mic allows you to really tailor a sound but gets a bit more complicated.

To fatten up the drum mix send a sample of the mix to a compressor and bring it back into another channel and mix the compressed sound with the dry sound.This will add expression on lower passages while helping control dynamics on louder passages.

If the drum is tuned correctly you should notice that with almost any good kick mic you will need very little EQ to make it sound right.

The only other component I would add is a decent noise gate to tighten it up.Set it so that the gate has a fairly fast decay.This will allow you to really pump up the kick volume in the mix and keep it there.Experiment with the gate to get the decay set to match the volume level in the mix. You might find adjusting that a bit longer for slow songs etc.

[gdougherty]

Mic is fine. Start with kick tuning..... A good kick sound for micing is not necessarily what sounds impressive unmiced. Kind of flat, unreverberant and flappy as I recall.
The kick itself will need to be mid 90db's before you really feel it.

What's the venue?

Thats probably the best Ive ever heard someone describe what a good un-miced kick sound should be like.

At all costs please remove the boom from the drum and you will find it mics better and sounds better especially when you want to really make it pound!

Boomy kick drums sound like ass in the mix.

Dont bury the mic in the drum.2 inches inside the hole is plenty.Front and back mic allows you to really tailor a sound but gets a bit more complicated.

To fatten up the drum mix send a sample of the mix to a compressor and bring it back into another channel and mix the compressed sound with the dry sound.This will add expression on lower passages while helping control dynamics on louder passages.

If the drum is tuned correctly you should notice that with almost any good kick mic you will need very little EQ to make it sound right.

The only other component I would add is a decent noise gate to tighten it up.Set it so that the gate has a fairly fast decay.This will allow you to really pump up the kick volume in the mix and keep it there.Experiment with the gate to get the decay set to match the volume level in the mix. You might find adjusting that a bit longer for slow songs etc.

Thanks, that's roughly what I recall from a great drum tuning guide I found a while back. Something like a cardboard box being hit with a bat is another description I've heard.
Nice techniques an sprucing up the drum mix.
+1 on the tuning and lack of need for EQ with a decent mic.
I've not found the need to gate the kick, but I usually work with drummers having ported heads and the stage volume bleed isn't often an issue.

Another important part of it all is a balanced system. I found it a bit too easy running aux-fed subs to overdrive the kick into the subs in order to get massive chest thump at the expense of any upper tone. It felt good but didn't sound as sharp. That's one of the reasons I went back to full-range with 48db slopes. On the downside, depending on your POV, I'm running things hotter overall to get that same chest thump.