OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

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Strapping Young Stu
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OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

#1 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

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Well they feel like they have been eons coming, since I placed the initial order back in July

They have been stuck in the garage since November, only just found time to get them wired up, learning how to solder in the process.

But here they are 4 OT12s looking rather ridiculous stacked up all together in my lounge but hey!

First of all, yes I know they are inside, this was just an initial listening session to check my wiring, check stuff is sealed and check that everything is as it should be. Also a chance to listen to lots of different source material and try and get a feel for a general EQ curve.

After running the AEQ on the DEQ2496 I kept the pink noise running and backed off some of the more extreme EQ settings to give what sounded to me like a balanced sound, bearing in mind I was just listening to noise.

Then I had to test it so I played several source tracks and listened.

I decided with my piezos to run 3 banks rather than 2, and I think it was the right decision, with 900W of power available I didn't want to run too much power by mistake and fry the tweeters. I have added a small boost in the region of between 1-3dB across the board on the tweeter frequencies - forgot to take a picture of my EQ settings.

By contrast the P.Audio SN12MB woofers I am using have needed on average 1-3dB of cut to get a good sound. As to their suitability, I can confirm that there is no audible hole in the mid range and the RTA shows nothing either. Others have used SN12Bs in the past with a compression driver and also reported good sound. So it just goes to show that other woofers can and do work in these designs. I am using the old style LP filter on the cab, Bill changed the parameters of this because some parts were obviously tough to find in the US, I don't know if the old one was more effective than the new one but anyway it works!

Initially I was running some CD tracks through them full range at comfortable listening volume with about 8dB of 60Hz boost to try and loosen up the suspension, because of this two of them sound distinctly better than the other two, because they had already had a day running in. It probably didnt help that I have had the drivers hanging around for about 2 years. Still.....

After that I decided to hook them up to the crossover, and played around with various crossover points, 100Hz seems best for both the 1x12 and 2x12. 120Hz also seemed ok for the 1x12, without losing too much low end off the vocal sounds.

That also cleaned up a couple of boomy room notches I was getting, so I could get a much better idea of what they were sounding like over their intended frequency range

Initial comments

1) Very very loud, my amp has a dB scale and with a CD track hitting -3dB on the DEQ input, I still had the amp down at -18dB, so at the most I was hitting about 9W into a pair. I did not want to turn it up any more at that point without donning some ear protection, which wasn't what this test was about.

2) Take a fair bit of EQ to get them to sound to my fairly critical standards, well the EQ isnt extreme, its just the time it took to get there was quite a while. The drivers aren't even broken in yet either, so I expect I will revise these settings later, hopefully outdoors.

3) With 100Hz crossover point they can really pound in the low end, surprisingly so, I had experienced this before with the O10KBW I built, but this is a different slightly less controlled bigger grunt, rather than a tight phutt sound.

4) Having the 10.5 that I recently got up and running was useful to compare, in the same room with the same amp, I think I preferred the sound of the 10.5, its just somehow cleaner and more accurate, no crossover, I suppose less going on to colour the sound really. However SPL is often the deciding factor in PA, and these have it by the bucketload. A lot more low end than the O10.5 - by low end I mean 100Hz area but this is expected.

So the big debate OT12 vs O10.5 - Each has its merits, I prefer the slightly tighter more controlled sound of the 10s but if you need to let rip some SPL, the OT12 wins hands down, now that Vlad has replaced his straight arrays with melded I am beginning to wonder if I should do the same.

I think I need more time with them before I decide that I am that unhappy that I need to make such a time consuming modification.

A few gigs down the road I should know. Due to their high efficiency nature they wont get used on most small gigs so I am not sure if it will be weeks or months before I have the answer.

Stu

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Scott Brochu
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#2 Post by Scott Brochu »

Nice cabs :wink:
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vlad335
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#3 Post by vlad335 »

Nice job Stu. Great looking cabs!

You mentioned that I replaced my straight arrays with melded. Actually, they were all crossfired.

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Just brought the OT212's home tonight for some maintainence and to grill them up. They are a little beat up but I got to give credit to the band, they have been very careful with the delicate arrays. They are in perfect condition. Come to think of it... I may not change these over to melded arrays after all. System sounded fantastic last weekend with the melded arrays on the top and just might leave it as is. Plus it's going to cost 90-100 bucks to upgrade the piezos in the 2-12's :(

Interested in seeing a pic of your EQ settings if you could get one up.
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Strapping Young Stu
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Re: OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

#4 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

WiSounds wrote:
I spy a B&W CM1 in Maple...
Sorry to disappoint you but its actually not!

Its a brand called TDL

Ridiculous bass from such a small cab though. A bit hyped for my tastes but my dad seems to like them.

Stu

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#5 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

vlad335 wrote:Nice job Stu. Great looking cabs!
I cant take the credit for the wood and paint work, since they were built for me but yeah, I like them. Already getting knocked, need to get some padded covers to keep them in good shape.

Stu

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LelandCrooks
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#6 Post by LelandCrooks »

I wonder if the difference you're describing in the cabs is drivers. I have Omni2x10's beta 10 loaded, and have built and run Otop 12's with the Deltalite. I preferred the Otop, at least for PA use with subs. Without subs the Omni was the winner because of bass response.
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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#7 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

LelandCrooks wrote:I wonder if the difference you're describing in the cabs is drivers. I have Omni2x10's beta 10 loaded, and have built and run Otop 12's with the Deltalite. I preferred the Otop, at least for PA use with subs. Without subs the Omni was the winner because of bass response.
The PAudio SN12MB is not recommended as it lacks the necessary rising midrange response.

Strapping Young Stu
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#8 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

LelandCrooks wrote:I wonder if the difference you're describing in the cabs is drivers. I have Omni2x10's beta 10 loaded, and have built and run Otop 12's with the Deltalite. I preferred the Otop, at least for PA use with subs. Without subs the Omni was the winner because of bass response.
Well when I get them out in the field I will know for sure but bear in mind I was not running them with subs for testing purposes so I was kinda stretching their range a bit.

The midrange is not where the problem is coming out really, when I started to use the cabs with the crossover I noticed a considerable improvement to their sound, I wonder if it is the room I was testing them in, causing peaks and dips but it was around the 120-400Hz mark that I wasnt sure I liked what they were doing.

This could be due to
1) Not breaking in the drivers
2) The room
3) My EQ settings
4) Something else

I wonder if its just the fact that I am not used to so much low end, because I liked the sound better once I plugged the crossover in. i.e. less subbass muddying up the midbass.

Stu

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#9 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

What was very good which I remember about them was that even at quiet volumes you hear a lot of detail.

I was listening to a Jeff Beck album through there at one stage, and there was a loop he used, that had obviously not had its volume automated in the DAW properly, because I could hear the loop cutting in and out, on any other speaker it just sounds like silence but with the OT12, you could pinpoint the exact start and end points of the loop as you could hear the difference between acoustic silence and digital silence.

Being able to hear that sort of detail is a big bonus, and if you think how the speaker might perform on normal more complex source material it makes you want to take them out on a gig straight away!

Stu

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LelandCrooks
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#10 Post by LelandCrooks »

Strapping Young Stu wrote:I was listening to a Jeff Beck album
Stu
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Did almost all of it first, gets no credit.
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Harley
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#11 Post by Harley »

I am curious as to why you used the cheap P.Audio SN12MB driver?

The history of the P Audio drivers - if I recall rightly - shows that their specs changed from time to time.

The P.Audio SN12MB is not a recommended driver.

Whilst some people may have used them in the past and reported "good sound", by your own admission you are a critical listener and given the "non-recommendation" and dodgey specs it's most likely they'll disappoint a discerning ear.

In addition, in another thread you have argued the case for using higher cost drivers than those specified.

I can understand putting up a "pre" review here for cabs that have been made to spec ( with recommended drivers ) but fail to see what purpose it serves when you are insistent on using anything else ( driver ) other than what is recommended in the plans.
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Strapping Young Stu
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#12 Post by Strapping Young Stu »

Harley wrote:I am curious as to why you used the cheap P.Audio SN12MB driver?
Without getting into an argument about it its not cheap it costs more than the Eminence, and short of the requisite rising midrange response that I have already commented appears to not be as much of a problem as people would make out, the remaining specs would actually make for a better driver both for reflex and horn loading IMO and several others that I have spoken to on the topic.
Harley wrote: The history of the P Audio drivers - if I recall rightly - shows that their specs changed from time to time.
Yep I bought mine getting on for 3 years ago now, before those regular changes started to happen. If you have a spec sheet from 3 years ago you will probably find the correct specs. If anyone DOES have one I would like to see it, for my own interest if nothing else!
Harley wrote: The P.Audio SN12MB is not a recommended driver
Agreed but as I said many months ago, since I had them and they cost a lot of money and I wouldn't get nearly as much money back on them later, I said I would try them and if they didn't work out, sell them and get Deltalites. I discussed this with people on this forum and other forums who I consider to have knowledge far in excess of my own and the general consensus was "before you do anything try them out". One response actually went something like this "You have gotta be joking if you think any driver is going to reach high enough to cross passively to Piezos phase bung, lowpass filter or not... you shouldn't even bother building this cab". So if I had listened to him I would now be sitting back with P.Audio drivers in reflex cabs. But thats no fun.
Harley wrote: Whilst some people may have used them in the past and reported "good sound", by your own admission you are a critical listener and given the "non-recommendation" and dodgey specs it's most likely they'll disappoint a discerning ear.
Absolutely, I should count my lucky stars, and my bank balance that they work to my own satisfaction, at least so far. There's still time for a U-turn however.
Harley wrote: In addition, in another thread you have argued the case for using higher cost drivers than those specified.
As I said they are higher cost (in the UK at least), and I did get the chance to examine a Deltalite driver recently as its used in my O10.5 and by contrast the P.Audio look and feel much better put together. Only time will tell if the looks and feel live up to the expectation. Jury will still be out, probably until something better comes along.
Harley wrote: I can understand putting up a "pre" review here for cabs that have been made to spec ( with recommended drivers ) but fail to see what purpose it serves when you are insistent on using anything else ( driver ) other than what is recommended in the plans.
Because I feel that evolution of designs comes from different people trying different stuff and experimenting for themselves, and driver alternatives are useful to those looking to build who cant get the correct drivers in the first place, sure the Deltalite is the most affordable driver in the US and almost everything over there is Eminence inside, but in Europe there are a huge range of driver manufacturers making cone loudspeakers and the options may be more restricted to what's available.

With P.Audio being the centre of a lot of OEM products in Europe they are quite freely available here, as are B&C who are well respected, 18Sound, Beyma, RCF, Celestion, Fane, PHL....... etc.

This review is not to say that I did everything right. I didnt, but if you go around saying that if a cab has 2 litres too little cabinet volume or you dont use exactly these components you shouldn't post a review, then by all rights half of the reviews in this section should be removed.

I feel like I might have helped some people by saying, ok I wasnt able to use the correct drivers in the first instance but hey I still managed to get the cab to work and its more than acceptable on a first listen and EQ session. I will of course update this review later as drivers bed in and the true sound of the cab comes out when I use it in different venues.

I am not planning to bicker about any further driver choices or cabinet R&D issues on this forum. I have just tried to help in aiding perhaps some European or worldwide builders by posting my own findings in the hope that someone can find it useful.

Stu

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Re: OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

#13 Post by spongebob1981 »

Hey Stu
Since I live in Argentina and Eminence drivers have no date of restocking (since a couple of years now), I find your findings quite useful.
If the specs are trustworthy and the price is similar, I will consider them. Have my doubts on both.
But since I have 2 J12 empty cabs siting in the garage, a less than optimal driver will make them sing a lot more than no driver.
Thanks again, see ya!

EDIT: more findings about the unreliability of PA specs rules them out. Don't we have a chart of driver compatibility up yet? :wall:
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Michael Ewald Hansen
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Re: OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

#14 Post by Michael Ewald Hansen »

spongebob1981 wrote:Hey Stu
Since I live in Argentina and Eminence drivers have no date of restocking (since a couple of years now), I find your findings quite useful.
If the specs are trustworthy and the price is similar, I will consider them. Have my doubts on both.
But since I have 2 J12 empty cabs siting in the garage, a less than optimal driver will make them sing a lot more than no driver.
Thanks again, see ya!

EDIT: more findings about the unreliability of PA specs rules them out. Don't we have a chart of driver compatibility up yet? :wall:
This is a 5 year old thread.. If you'd checked you would see that Stu hasnt been online on the forum for 3 years :)
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Bas Gooiker
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Re: OT12s - Initial DEQ setup and comments

#15 Post by Bas Gooiker »

spongebob1981 wrote:Hey Stu
Since I live in Argentina and Eminence drivers have no date of restocking (since a couple of years now), I find your findings quite useful.
If the specs are trustworthy and the price is similar, I will consider them. Have my doubts on both.
But since I have 2 J12 empty cabs siting in the garage, a less than optimal driver will make them sing a lot more than no driver.
Thanks again, see ya!

EDIT: more findings about the unreliability of PA specs rules them out. Don't we have a chart of driver compatibility up yet? :wall:
Antonz is using this P-Audio driver in his otops. If i remember correct they should be pretty close to the Deltalites.
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