Problematic Wedgehorns

[gdougherty]

To fill in anyone who isn't familiar with my church arrangement, my church rents from a 7th day adventist group that meets on Saturdays, we're a Sunday/Wednesday group. The other church had a preinstalled system, all Mackie speakers, 3 mains and 4 stage monitors. Monitors are all discontinued passive speakers, nice and compact, sound pretty decent but have the same beaming problems as most all monitors, have to be in the sweet spot to get the highs. Their setup is piano, keyboard and a line of 4 vocals with the vocalists all sharing 2 monitors.

Over the winter I don't get out much with my portable rig so to entice them to build a set of Wedgehorns with the now unused Dayton 6.5" drivers I gave them, I setup mine for their vocalists so they could hear better. The Mackies are EQ'd flat, so I EQ'd the Wedgehorns flat as well. We use them for our services and love them. I happened to drop by yesterday and found they'd unplugged the Wedgehorns and set them off to the side, chosing to run the Mackies instead.

Their sound guy informed me that his wife, an alto who stands on the end of the line, didn't like them so they switched back. The reason they were unacceptable? Apparently she couldn't get used to hearing the rest of the vocalists as much as she could with the Wedgehorns. With the Mackies she heard mostly herself and less of the highs from the sopranos and other singers since she wasn't in the sweet spot.

Builders beware, these are just too clear off-axis and do not perform as well as traditional monitors.

[DJ Big Ronn]

I've also heard that some singers don't like Bills tops, because they sound so clear, that the singers realize that they dont sound as good as they thought they did

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The reason they were unacceptable? Apparently she couldn't get used to hearing the rest of the vocalists as much as she could with the Wedgehorns. With the Mackies she heard mostly herself and less of the highs from the sopranos and other singers since she wasn't in the sweet spot.

You can tell the pros from the poseurs by what they want in the monitors. Poseurs want 'Me, me and only ME!", usually because they're tone deaf. Pros know what their voice is doing, and want the monitors to hear, and be able to blend with, everyone else.
Let the prima donna buy herself in-ears.

[Ron K]

The reason they were unacceptable? Apparently she couldn't get used to hearing the rest of the vocalists as much as she could with the Wedgehorns. With the Mackies she heard mostly herself and less of the highs from the sopranos and other singers since she wasn't in the sweet spot.

You can tell the pros from the poseurs by what they want in the monitors. Poseurs want 'Me, me and only ME!", usually because they're tone deaf. Pros know what their voice is doing, and want the monitors to hear, and be able to blend with, everyone else.
Let the prima donna buy herself in-ears.

+10000
Amazing- I'd love to see her on a big stage. The nutin but me syndrome would have her lost in 1 verse! In the end they end up blaming the techs for making them sound bad!

My response is usually

"you cant shine shit"

[Ron K]

I've also heard that some singers don't like Bills tops, because they sound so clear, that the singers realize that they dont sound as good as they thought they did

Good excuse to drink more!

[gdougherty]

I've also heard that some singers don't like Bills tops, because they sound so clear, that the singers realize that they dont sound as good as they thought they did

Good excuse to drink more!

It makes you smarter, better looking, more confident and more talented, all in one glass.

[gdougherty]

You can tell the pros from the poseurs by what they want in the monitors. Poseurs want 'Me, me and only ME!", usually because they're tone deaf. Pros know what their voice is doing, and want the monitors to hear, and be able to blend with, everyone else.

Never thought about it like that before. Good way to gauge an artist's talent. I'd always gone the other way with vocalists that don't want themselves in the monitors are unconfident or know they sound bad enough they don't want to hear it.

[SnakeFingers]

It's always bothersome when people make sweeping generalizations:

You can tell the pros from the poseurs by what they want in the monitors. Poseurs want 'Me, me and only ME!", usually because they're tone deaf. Pros know what their voice is doing, and want the monitors to hear, and be able to blend with, everyone else.

I'm partially deaf (not from loud music though) and wear hearing aids. I need pretty specific things onstage to function. I often ask for more me in my monitor because I usually stand next to a bass player who is a prima dona, and he turns up his amp so loud I can't hear myself play or sing. Neither can the guy on the other side of him (and he's not hearing impaired).

Sometimes a request for more me in the monitor is simply someone trying to cope with a disability or with too high of a stage SPL. BTW, I also ask for more of the lead singer too. Without that connection, I'm lost.

I get where Bill is coming from, and he's right about some folks, but I can't tell you how many times I've run into a sound tech who thinks along these lines, and have had to stop a sound check to "edumacate" him about how to work with someone who is hearing impaired.

And before any of you start making remarks about a half-deaf musician, I'd point out that at least half the musicians and sound techs out there are in the same boat as I am, whether they're old guys playing bluegrass or older guys mixing rock. And some of 'em- the ones who have figured out how to get the most out of what they have- do a better job than their comrades with good hearing.

[James R]

It's always bothersome when people make sweeping generalizations:

You can tell the pros from the poseurs by what they want in the monitors. Poseurs want 'Me, me and only ME!", usually because they're tone deaf. Pros know what their voice is doing, and want the monitors to hear, and be able to blend with, everyone else.

I'm partially deaf (not from loud music though) and wear hearing aids. I need pretty specific things onstage to function. I often ask for more me in my monitor because I usually stand next to a bass player who is a prima dona, and he turns up his amp so loud I can't hear myself play or sing. Neither can the guy on the other side of him (and he's not hearing impaired).

Sometimes a request for more me in the monitor is simply someone trying to cope with a disability or with too high of a stage SPL. BTW, I also ask for more of the lead singer too. Without that connection, I'm lost.

I get where Bill is coming from, and he's right about some folks, but I can't tell you how many times I've run into a sound tech who thinks along these lines, and have had to stop a sound check to "edumacate" him about how to work with someone who is hearing impaired.

And before any of you start making remarks about a half-deaf musician, I'd point out that at least half the musicians and sound techs out there are in the same boat as I am, whether they're old guys playing bluegrass or older guys mixing rock. And some of 'em- the ones who have figured out how to get the most out of what they have- do a better job than their comrades with good hearing.

To me you're perfect canidate for in ear monitors then, or move the bass player elsewhere on the stage that would be my suggestion.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I'm partially deaf (not from loud music though) and wear hearing aids. I need pretty specific things onstage to function. I often ask for more me in my monitor because I usually stand next to a bass player who is a prima dona, and he turns up his amp so loud I can't hear myself play or sing. .

You should have in-ears, then, so that you not only can hear yourself better but also filter out everything else as required. How that might work with your hearings aids I can't say, but half the battle would be won by not having stage noise to contend with.

[Dave Non-Zero]

could you hav an induction loop monitor send?

[SnakeFingers]

James, Bill & Dave-

Thanks for your even toned responses to my admitedly heated post. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread.

Your suggestions all have merit, and I have tried some of them.

My experience is that induction loop technology is really lousy when it comes to anything more than amplifying speech. It's also susceptible to picking up hum and other types of EMI akin to the 60Hz hum that tube amps were famous for (lighting circuits with dimmers and CAt-5 enet cable can be really nasty).

The last time I tried in-ear monitors (5 years ago) I was a amazed at how good they sounded and dismayed over how isolated I was from the room and the rest of the band. I used them a few times and found that I was even more at the mercy of the sound tech as I depended on him to do a seperate monitor mix for me. From what I've read recently, now there are ways to get around these problems.

This band is not loud, at least the FOH isn't. I mentioned the culprit is the bass player, and his tendency to get loud onstage. He uses a relatively small 50 watt amp as a mon and taps off of it direct for FOH. I'd rather move him off the stage completely, but that's another story. (He'd have been booted long ago if he wasn't married to the lead singer).

[David Robinson]

I've also heard that some singers don't like Bills tops, because they sound so clear, that the singers realize that they dont sound as good as they thought they did

Good excuse to drink more!

It makes you smarter, better looking, more confident and more talented, all in one glass.

http://www.fugly.com/videos/6452/tequil ... rcial.html

'Nuff said!

[James R]

James, Bill & Dave-

Thanks for your even toned responses to my admitedly heated post. I wasn't intending to hijack the thread.

Your suggestions all have merit, and I have tried some of them.

My experience is that induction loop technology is really lousy when it comes to anything more than amplifying speech. It's also susceptible to picking up hum and other types of EMI akin to the 60Hz hum that tube amps were famous for (lighting circuits with dimmers and CAt-5 enet cable can be really nasty).

The last time I tried in-ear monitors (5 years ago) I was a amazed at how good they sounded and dismayed over how isolated I was from the room and the rest of the band. I used them a few times and found that I was even more at the mercy of the sound tech as I depended on him to do a seperate monitor mix for me. From what I've read recently, now there are ways to get around these problems.

This band is not loud, at least the FOH isn't. I mentioned the culprit is the bass player, and his tendency to get loud onstage. He uses a relatively small 50 watt amp as a mon and taps off of it direct for FOH. I'd rather move him off the stage completely, but that's another story. (He'd have been booted long ago if he wasn't married to the lead singer).

I see a couple things that could be done, one get in ears for the bass player or I read about 3D ambient IEM's from Sensaphonics.com. I personally haven't seen or used these only read about them or run a room mic for in ears so you could get the ambients of the room. Just my 2 cents is all

[Dave Non-Zero]

run a room mic for in ears so you could get the ambients of the room. Just my 2 cents is all

Thats an interesting idea.