FOH and Monitor mixers- connecting them.

[Grant Bunter]

I know it's so old school lol, but I just bought a Soundcraft Monitor 16/8 channel monitor mixer (for $180AU ). It's supposedly totally functional, yet to go right through that, it will be when I'm done one way or the other.

I'm scratching my head a bit about hooking up both when I have one 100ft/30m multicore that doesn't have parallels/splits on the stage box.

I will use them, when needed, with both mixers run from the same power source (to help eliminate ground loops/hum).

I've been reading before posting this thread.
Some say that a splitter with isolation transformers is required. That's big $ to buy a commercial unit.
Others suggest parallel outs, or mic cable splitters on the stage box will, more often than not, be fine (there's some thoughts about phantom power being an issue).

On smaller gigs with one or two sends, I'm ok with using a couple of my Aux sends on the FOH mixer.
LArger jobs, I want to free up the Aux sends for FOH use.

How do the learned fellas here hook up monitor mixers???

[BrentEvans]

The proper way to do it is an transformer isolated split. This can be built into the snake, or a bunch of separate boxes. Separate split boxes will be more expensive.

Sell it all, add the thousand you'd spend on a split snake, and you can probably have a soundcraft si impact.

[David Raehn]

I've been working this out, myself.....

I priced out all necessary bit for building a transformer isolated splitter (not high dollar transformers but good ones rolled to my spec.) and ended up at ~$500 plus a lot of my own elbow grease.

Fast forward to early this week: I found out that the ART S8, will do what I need at about $45 a channel. This ends up about the same amount of money but without the related labor.

Here are the transformers:
https://www.edcorusa.com/wsm_series

Here is the S8:
http://artproaudio.com/art_products/aud ... roduct/s8/

https://reverb.com/item/498229-art-s8-8 ... e-splitter

[CoronaOperator]

Sure the S8 looks nice, but is it made from virgins???



"Magnet Wire
All units are wound with the finest virgin copper magnet wire. All windings use heavy insulated wire to provide excellent manufacturing yield, lower customer cost and superior life."

from transformer page: https://www.edcorusa.com/wsm_series

[Grant Bunter]

The proper way to do it is an transformer isolated split. This can be built into the snake, or a bunch of separate boxes. Separate split boxes will be more expensive.

Thanks Brent

Sell it all, add the thousand you'd spend on a split snake, and you can probably have a soundcraft si impact.

As much as that would be fantastic forever forward, not here in Australia Brent.
32 in/out SI impact is around $4750. Add a digital stagebox for a coupla grand, and I'm around 5 1/2 grand better off with the split snake and monitor mixer I have. At least for now...

[Bruce Weldy]

Grant,

Just wondering about the logistics of using this setup. Do you have someone to run monitors for you now while you are at FOH? If not, it's going to be a real pain to be going back and forth to change someone's monitor mix during a show....and that will definitely happen.

Sounds like all you really need is just a board with more auxes. Instead of going all the way with an expensive digital board, why not just stick with the same type of board you have now and just move to a larger format? Find a used one - that would have to be cheaper and certainly easier to run by yourself.

[Grant Bunter]

Grant,

Just wondering about the logistics of using this setup. Do you have someone to run monitors for you now while you are at FOH? If not, it's going to be a real pain to be going back and forth to change someone's monitor mix during a show....and that will definitely happen.

Sounds like all you really need is just a board with more auxes. Instead of going all the way with an expensive digital board, why not just stick with the same type of board you have now and just move to a larger format? Find a used one - that would have to be cheaper and certainly easier to run by yourself.

Totally understood and great thinking Bruce.

In part, getting hold of the monitor mixer is about dry hire.
On the odd occasion, we get live artists out here without PA.
Sometimes, though rarely, they want to run FOH themselves with their own engineer, but want a monitor mix with operator. I can put my hand up for monitors and still be with my gear that way. I've also been half thinking about a way to run both Monitor and FOH from FOH. That wouldn't be quite the same, but I would have the capacity to do that, and still free up the aux's on my FOH board.
I've got 8 returns on my stagebox/snake. I use one to run mono FOH, so technically I could run 7 out of 8 output channels on the monitor mixer back to the stage.

I've been trying to get hold of a larger board with more Aux sends for FOH for some time now.
I had one in my hands 6 months ago, but it wasn't what I thought it was. In other words, Item not as described from e-bay.
It was supposed to be a Series 2 Live (24/4) , another Soundcraft desk (hey I really like Soundcraft!), with 6 Aux outs, which would have given me a couple of Aux's for FX and 4 for monitors.
Quite enough for what you're suggesting most often than not.

Same again in the local market. New mixers cost a packet here. So when the previous owners go to move them on, they think they are worth a packet then as well.

To complete my ramblings lol, if the monitor mixer had FX send and return (rather than "only" inserts), I'd use that desk for FOH and problem would be over...

[Bruce Weldy]

While I'm sure you can get there easily depending on the act, I've yet to need more than the 6 auxes I have available.....that was with each member of the band getting their own mix. Of course, I only have amp channels for 6, so that's all I offer.

[David Raehn]

Depending on how the market is, and I don't know what it is like down there, the digital age is pushing a lot of manual consoles onto the market as people upgrade....

I have a Mackie SR40 that I picked up last year for less than $500 - shipped.

It has 8 auxes in addition to LC+R.

I would offer to crate it up for you and sell it for what I have in it, but I believe the shipping would be atrocious.

[Grant Bunter]

Depending on how the market is, and I don't know what it is like down there, the digital age is pushing a lot of manual consoles onto the market as people upgrade....

What you say about digital mixers is true David.
It's not seeing sale pricing here though. Eg:
Mackie Onyx 1640 listed on US e-bay at $620AU BIN
Mackie Onyx 1640 listed on Aussie e-bay is $2300 BIN

2 different used presonus studio live 16 0 2's ranging from $1370 to $1600AU BIN locally.
And so on.

I have a Mackie SR40 that I picked up last year for less than $500 - shipped.

It has 8 auxes in addition to LC+R.
That's the sort of price I would like

I would offer to crate it up for you and sell it for what I have in it, but I believe the shipping would be atrocious.

Atrocious would be about right lol. Thank you for even thinking it though...

[James Champer]

This may be a silly suggestion Grant (as I consider myself a more of a hobbyist sound engineer) but would a Behringer XR18 X Air type of mixer solve a lot of your problems?

I love the hell out of mine. I use the six aux outs for separate monitor mixes because the routing options on that thing is ridiculous! And I've not needed more than four to date

Not only that, for small gigs, a snake is not needed at all (wireless - I use a laptop out in the crowd) and for larger shows I simply use a cat5 with backup of course. I no longer need the monster that is my old snake at all!

Not only that, I've slimmed my cab down to the; xAir, my dr260 and a couple of amps that all stay on stage where the action is.

@$700us it seems like you could get rid of a lot of "baggage".

Disregard if not applicable. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

[Grant Bunter]

This may be a silly suggestion Grant (as I consider myself a more of a hobbyist sound engineer) but would a Behringer XR18 X Air type of mixer solve a lot of your problems?

I love the hell out of mine. I use the six aux outs for separate monitor mixes because the routing options on that thing is ridiculous! And I've not needed more than four to date

Not only that, for small gigs, a snake is not needed at all (wireless - I use a laptop out in the crowd) and for larger shows I simply use a cat5 with backup of course. I no longer need the monster that is my old snake at all!

Not only that, I've slimmed my cab down to the; xAir, my dr260 and a couple of amps that all stay on stage where the action is.

@$700us it seems like you could get rid of a lot of "baggage".

Disregard if not applicable. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Thanks for chiming in James.

While something like that might work for me alone, it doesn't cut it for those odd larger jobs.
I have been asked to quote a few times to provide PA for larger gigs locally (rather than PA being driven a minimum of 8 hours to get here), mostly for country acts BTW, and rider proviso's in general exclude both Behringer and Presonus.
I'm inclined to stay away from Behringer mainly for that reason, despite the many positive reviews for their mixers in this forum.
By the same token, analogue desks are expected to be minimum of 32 channel, so I fall down there as well.
Those same riders also expect brand names like EAW/Meyer/JBL vertec line arrays etc, and back line provision.

I've managed to talk a couple of those quotes around and got the job, and they have been happy with the result with what I have and my BFM rig.

It's kinda a case in some ways of going big, but

X18/ X18 Air best pricing locally is around $1500AU.
We're taking a hit due to the $US/AU exchange rate at present.
Not all product coming here is auto multi voltage selecting. I have to be wary of that as well.
And shipping here from elsewhere in the world is, well, prohibitive and problematic when it comes to imports and excise etc due to recent changes.

I know I'm going to have to go digital one day...

edit:
I forgot to say that it's not just a desk. For many of the digital systems you have to not only buy the mixer, you also have to put your hand up for ipad or android or whatever, a router, digital snake (unless you put the unit on stage) blah blah blah, that all adds up to more $.
I didn't know you could operate via laptop for example, so that would be handy...

[Bruce Weldy]

you also have to put your hand up for ipad or android or whatever, a router, digital snake (unless you put the unit on stage) blah blah blah, that all adds up to more $.
I didn't know you could operate via laptop for example, so that would be handy...

Not at all. All digital boards run just fine with a standard copper wire snake.

The beauty of the digital board isn't the iPad connectivity - it's the built-in features. I'd just as soon never mix with an iPad again....but, I'll probably have to at some point.

But, I will never rely solely on an iPad as my only mixing surface.....noway, nohow.

[James Champer]

you also have to put your hand up for ipad or android or whatever, a router, digital snake (unless you put the unit on stage) blah blah blah, that all adds up to more $.
I didn't know you could operate via laptop for example, so that would be handy...

Not at all. All digital boards run just fine with a standard copper wire snake.

The beauty of the digital board isn't the iPad connectivity - it's the built-in features. I'd just as soon never mix with an iPad again....but, I'll probably have to at some point.

But, I will never rely solely on an iPad as my only mixing surface.....noway, nohow.

Me neither. That's why I use my laptop. I have walked the room making changes on my iPad or Galaxy S5 phone but for most mixing, I prefer a mouse over my finger.

It is nice that I can make changes on any of the devices I have hooked to it and the others update immediately.

I don't know that I'll ever go back to analog.

[James Champer]

It's kinda a case in some ways of going big, but

(second reply, for some reason the first didn't take)

No worries, I thought that might be the case. Like I said, disregard.

However, you won't regret digital when you can get there.