processors with hard limiting / dcx replacements

[djtecthreat]

I've been using DCXs in my small systems and I need to relace them. I tried the DriveRack PA, PX, and 260 and I'm finding that the limiting is awful.

I set the voltage, dial everything in and then I test the system and find that the limiter doesn't catch quick blips of audio. So basically- no good for speaker protection.

The DCX does this VERY well, I never worry if I will over-volt the drivers.

Any recommendations for speaker management with good limiting?

[Tom Smit]

Have money? Then, possibly the Ashley Pretea or the Symetrix Solus8.

[Grant Bunter]

Is there a contractual reason to not use the DCX?

Most limiters will get blips, and that's usally an indicator things are set up correctly.
It's when the limiter is constantly engaged that RMS power can blow drivers, and the usual advice holds there, more cabs.

I posted this the other day in this thread:
http://billfitzmaurice.info/forum/viewt ... 1&start=30
Cross out the non applicable parts, like 240V compatable.

Other processors:
There are a number about. While there doesn't seem to be much BBE product here in Australia, a used DS24 could be picked up from OS, but you would have to know it's 240V compatable.
Same same for other BBE newer product.

One that forum member Rick Lee (IIRC) has installed in a number of venues is product(s) available from Bunker Audio. He's given it good reviews. It's multi voltage compatable.
I considered getting it when it came out, rather than DCX or Driverack, but a DCX popped up cheap locally.

Comparison chart:
http://sound4us.elementfx.com/images/comparison.pdf
Website:
http://sound4us.elementfx.com/

Seems Carvin do one as well, the Carvin XD360:
http://www.carvinworld.com/products/XD360
Appears somewhat limited in regards to amount of parametric only EQ, not many filters per channel.

There are more brands and models, but they seem to jump in price significantly:
Yamaha SP 2060
Ashly Protea
Mackie SP 260
Electro Voice DC-One
JBL DSC260
Meyer's Galileo system

And so on...

[jimbo7]

I hate to sound like a Carvin fanboy, but what about the XD360?
http://www.carvinguitars.com/products/XD360
I don't see anything about RTA, though.

[byacey]

I don't really find any fault with the DBX; I haven't experienced any over-shoot that did any harm. What are you using to measure the limiter over-shoot, and how did you determine the limiting was awful?

[SoundInMotionDJ]

I've been using DCXs in my small systems and I need to relace them.

The DCX does this VERY well, I never worry if I will over-volt the drivers.

Is there some reason buying new DCXs is not an option?

[djtecthreat]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I just have to get Behringer's brand out of my racks. I had a couple fail randomly and as much as I like them for functionality I just cant trust them.

I set the DBX units up the standard way,

-amp gains full
-run a test tone through the rig in the pass band
-probe the amp and measure AC voltage with a Fluke DMM
-Set mixer output so amp is past desired output voltage
-Dial back limiter til desired voltage is achieved (60v in this case)

Its worth noting my RMX2450s are no where near clip at 60v output.

Then I play a track through the rig and push the mixer past resonable levels and watch the clip light go solid.

Play a test tone and the limiter will pass the signal then ramp back down to 60v. If I pump the fader up and down I can easily see 100v+ on the DMM.

This limiter will not protect the drivers from a loud mic drop or an overzealous DJ.

The DCX doesnt behave this way, I've tried tweaking every parameter and exhausted my patience with the DBX.

I'll check out the above mentioned units.

Thanks again guys.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

I just have to get Behringer's brand out of my racks. I had a couple fail randomly and as much as I like them for functionality I just cant trust them.

Beware the urge to change to the system you do not know (personally). I have had at least one bit of gear from every major manufacturer "randomly" fail over the last 20-ish years. In most cases, I replaced the failed component with whatever the current equivalent from the same manufacturer today....being the devil (and user interface) that I know.

If you are otherwise happy with the feature set of the DCX, and you want some redundancy, then buy two. OR....take into account the age of the DCX at the failure and plan to replace 6 months to a year before the failure happened.

I have four DCXs (and four DEQs). They have been in service for over six years. In that time, I have had one DEQ fail. In terms of "reliability" that is a better track record than I have for a LOT of other gear. I will likely continue to favor the DCX...because I know how to get it to do what I want, and I know EXACTLY where each control and setting is found in the user interface. That "muscle memory" has a value.

[Bruce Weldy]

-Dial back limiter til desired voltage is achieved (60v in this case)

If I pump the fader up and down I can easily see 100v+ on the DMM.

Which driver are you using that takes 60 volts? That's running 'em right up the the limit. Mine will take 60 also, but I limit at 54-56.

I've never had the voltmeter run up that high. At most, maybe 2-4 volts if I slam the master all the way up.

You're sure you have it on the limiter and not the soft knee function?

[djtecthreat]

3015LF is limited at 60v. I usually click it back a few volts but for purposes of this discussion, i was going for 60v.

Absolutely positive its the limiter function. I've used and configured a lot of these processors so I really delved into the functions and even tried these other options.

I never bounce or ride off the limiters. I'm well below them most of the time, running extra cabs and amps to get it done. The problem is protection. These drivers arent going to take the huge transient power bumps that my amps can put out in the event of operator error.

[byacey]

I would question the readings from your meter. Digital meters don't display quickly changing signals well with any accuracy. If you have a Fluke 87, you could use the record function to capture the average and peak voltage for review; This is accurate to around 100ms if I remember correctly. The only accurate way to really check this is with a scope. I've never experienced the overshoot that you describe. Going from 60V to 100V is about a 4db change; I would be very surprised if the DBX was letting this get past the limiter.

Something else to consider is that thousands of other people have been using the same units without any problems with regard to the limiter action, so why do you anticipate problems in your application?

[djtecthreat]

I don't even need a meter to know the limiter isnt working. The amps are clipping, its a tell tale sign the signal is slipping past the limiter. The meter doesnt detect this with the DCX, common deduction leads me to believe its the DriveRack.

This is actually a common problem with tthe DBX units, a quick Google search reveals other having similar problems.

I'd rather not get into why the Behringers have to go, but if need be: Failures in the field during a show are unacceptable. 3 units in 6 months is unacceptable. My gigs are stepping up and more important shows are being booked with these "B" rigs I have. Behringer just doesn't look good in the rack.

[CoronaOperator]

In your last thread on the DBX I noticed you had a 0ms hold time. Have you tried increasing that? Having the limiter release before the end of the peak would surely cause problems.

[frpcraig]

You do need a meter to see if the limiter is working.
The amp can clip all it likes and the limiter keeps it at 60 volts that's the point.

[byacey]

You do need a meter to see if the limiter is working.
The amp can clip all it likes and the limiter keeps it at 60 volts that's the point.

The purpose of the limiter is to prevent amp clipping and over-excursion of the speaker.
The digital meter is fine for adjusting the limiter threshold with a steady-state sine wave signal, but if you're checking for limiter overshoot, a scope is the right tool for the job. A digital meter won't react fast enough to provide any meaningful reading.