Digital mixer opinions?

[Jools4001]

As someone who has to mix from stage I'm considering buying a small digital mixer such as the Mackie DL1608 or the Line 6 Stagescape M20D.

I've seen that the Mackie gets a lot of love with many favourable reviews. I think this would be a viable option for me and has a lot of 'pros'. The 'cons' for me are that it's recording facilities are not as good as the Stagescape (and we record all our rehearsals and gigs) and it doesn't have some of the neat features of the Stagescape such as autotrim, assignable feedback eliminators and so on. The Mackie also has an external power supply which I'm never fond of.

The Stagescape looks (at least on paper) to be the technically better option for me except that the general vibe around it is more sceptical and not so many people have been prepared to dive in - you see a lot of reviews from magazines, blogs and stores but not too many genuine user reviews from people who have risked their own money on it. Also, as a bass player who used to successfully use a Bass Pod Live XT and had built up a big patch library customised for every song we've ever done, I'm still sore that it has finally broken and that there is no viable replacemnt. I knew I was on a wing and a prayer with it because Line 6 simply dumped us bass players years ago no further development on any of the bass models past the XT series in what, 2008 or something? I can't help feeling that if the Stagescape doesn't sell well (and it doesn't appear to be flying off the shelves) that Line 6 will simply drop it, and leave people who have bought one dangling.

Since there are many people on here with loads more experience in live sound than me, does anyone have any experience of the Stagescape in comparison with it's obvious rivals?

PS: Haven't dismissed the Presonus stuff, or even the small format Berry X32's if they ever become anything more than "coming soon" on their website.

[Bruce Weldy]

As I own the Presonus 16.4.2, my view is biased. I love that board.

The biggest problem that I see with your two options above is that they are both totally dependent on the iPad. Neither company controls the iPad or the software available to them.

Apple has absolutely no vested interest in making sure that future hardware, firmware, or software changes will keep those products viable.

I use a laptop and an iPad with my Presonus. But, if either or both devices crap out I can still finish the show.

Personally, I would never buy a product that is totally dependent upon a third party device over which the product's manufacturer has no control.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I found when mixing from the stage that the most important feature is a full level display for every input channel. It's the only way to see the balance of all the input channels, the usual signal present/clip LEDs just don't do the job. The other features all have value, but bottom line is that if you're mixing from the stage there's no way to hear how it sounds out front, so make sure you can see how it sounds out front.

[Bruce Weldy]

I found when mixing from the stage that the most important feature is a full level display for every input channel. It's the only way to see the balance of all the input channels, the usual signal present/clip LEDs just don't do the job. The other features all have value, but bottom line is that if you're mixing from the stage there's no way to hear how it sounds out front, so make sure you can see how it sounds out front.

Funny you should say that.....the presonus has meters on every channel - they serve many functions depending on the mode you have it in.....but, when running off the stage, or even when I'm mixing FOH, I keep up the input meters on every channel. Just reassuring to know that every channel is working and nothing looks out of line.

[40 Hz]

What I am going to suggest might sound strange at first, but it is working very well for what I need it for. If you have a limited number of inputs, it may work for you too.

I recently bought a PreSonus Audiobox 1818VSL, check it out at: http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-1818VSL

Although it is marketed as a recording interface, I am using it for live sound too (along with my PowerBook) and it is working very well. What is nice about this particular interface is that it has built in DSP (compression/EQ/Reverb/etc.) that can be used in real-time with no latency (just like it's big brother, the StudioLive console).

I am mixing from the stage on the computer. It is a very simple set-up, so basically I do no tweaking once we are onstage (other that change presets between songs). All the setting have been fine tuned at rehearsals. As far as I am concerned, it functions like a StudioLive console, without having to lug the console around to the small shows we play.

I used to be a recording engineer, and I really love the built in compression on every channel (four stereo compressors would have cost me more that this device did) I actually sold some of my DBX's as these DSP compressors give me more flexibility and sound just as good. We record all our practices and gigs, and I am really amazed what this device is capable of if you have the background to know how to use it.

I got involved in digital recording about 20 years ago, and it has been amazing to see how that has grown, and what it has allowed musicians to accomplish. I feel that live sound is heading in that direction, and I think a computer (or iPad) will soon be a very common sight in live sound. The big guys have been using them for a while already, and some of the products / software are now starting to be affordable to the small guys like us. Some of the software that have been developed in the past few years is amazing. There is a definite learning curve to learn to use some of this stuff properly, but the features digital processing allows, compared to what it costs you if you bought these devices separately, is unreal.

[Jools4001]

Interesting...

A couple of reasons I was interested in the Stagescape was the autotrim function which optimises the mic pre gain and keeps monitoring it while you play, so that if everybody gets excited and start to belt out vocals hotter than usual, the system will turn the gain down to stop clipping - and it will also bring the fader up so that the mix remains constant. With a standard SD card you can also record multiple tracks taken directly after the mic pre and recording dry - pre any EQ, effects or dynamic processing, so in theory you could set the system up, EQ it for the room then use prerecorded tracks of the band on the SD card to set up a baseline mix on an iPod out front, before the rest of the band turn up or, pre-record my bass track and have the rest of the band play, again while I baseline mix out front....that's the theory, I have no idea whether it works well in practise or just in the marketing hype.

That's sort of the same deal as watching the meters and getting out front...not for the whole performance obviously

The 1818 idea is intriguing and I still like the Presonus StudioLive (16.0.2 is probably enough for me in both features and pack space).

The Stagescape seems nice on paper, but I remember being stung years ago when video recorders first became available. Of the Betamax, VHS and Philips standards, the Philips was by far the best from a technical point of view and being a sucker for the best tech, that's what I bought...and it died a death. The lack of any independent reviews for the Stagescape, seems to indicate that everyone else is highly sceptical as well and, although it is self contained and doesn't need an iPad, I am just as dubious (following my Bass Pod experience) about Line 6's commitment to their own proprietary products as I am about Mackie's reliance on Apple...

Hmmmm.....maybe time to reconsider the presonus

[Bruce Weldy]

With a standard SD card you can also record multiple tracks taken directly after the mic pre and recording dry - pre any EQ, effects or dynamic processing, so in theory you could set the system up, EQ it for the room then use prerecorded tracks of the band on the SD card to set up a baseline mix on an iPod out front, before the rest of the band turn up or, pre-record my bass track and have the rest of the band play, again while I baseline mix out front....that's the theory, I have no idea whether it works well in practise or just in the marketing hype.

You can do the same thing with the presonus.....but it does require the laptop. These new systems do have some great features - my only issue is the big picture....will it still be running 5 years from now.

The 1818 idea is intriguing and I still like the Presonus StudioLive (16.0.2 is probably enough for me in both features and pack space).

If you like doing your setup on a PC, then using the mic pres will work fine. Just not my cup of tea. I struggle with being able to see that little screen, especially during a daytime setup. I can stand over a board and look down, but you'd have to get a high table to be able to see a laptop during a gig while playing and trying to move a fader with a mouse.....ooooh....just thinking of that makes me nervous. I like being able to grab a fader with my right hand while the left stays on the guitar neck.....I've gotten pretty fast at it over the years.

I'd step up to the 16.4.2 if at all possible. The width is the same I think - 19 inch rackmountable. But, the 4.2 has better EQ and more features.

[gdougherty]

The x32 Compact should be out by years' end. Having recently become a regular user of the full size desk, I'd take one of those over any of your other options. The Compact is all the same features and power just with half the inputs and faders. I've mixed on the Presonus and find it a pain to try and live with both the desk and the iPad at the same time. Mostly due to the surface and the lack of motorized faders. The X32 has none of those problems.

[Jools4001]

Decisions, decisions...well, it's a nice "problem" to have.

We've got a couple of gigs in July and then the band always takes August off for summer holidays. So I'll use my current Yamaha MG2414FX for the July gigs - there is nothing wrong with this desk except that it has double the channel count I really need for my current band, and it's big and heavy.

So I plan to use August as a 'build' month, since I will also be off work during August. I will be building some W8's and some J12 Lites, so I'll also want to get the mixer and a new poweramp sorted by then - so I'm not sure I want to hang around until the end of the year for the Berry X32 Compact to appear...although I may well have a look at it's big brother to see if the compact will be worth the wait.

I guess it'll just be a question of finding the ever more scarce bricks and mortar dealers amongst all the on-line guys and going to try them all in the flesh.

BTW: as an aside, I'll be building the W8's first so that we don't have to borrow any monitors for the July gig (long story). I've had some difficulty sourcing quality BB but finally found some near enough to me and it was delivered today (along with the BB for the J12L's). The BB was quite expensive but it is lovely stuff...does anybody else get a quiet glow of satisfaction just looking at a fresh sheet of really high quality ply, or am I just weird?

[Jools4001]

Well, blow me down. When I check Behringer's site yesterday the X32 Compact was "Coming Soon".

Googled it just after my last post here and it's status has changed to "Buy Now" and all the dealers have got prices and delivery times (1-10 days) - so it's back in the mix (dreadful pun I know).

[BrentEvans]

Seems I'm a bit late to the discussion, but since I've used just about all of these options, please allow me to offer my opinion.

First, skip the Mackie and Line 6 toys. The Mackie relies on the iPad for its interface... so if you have a dead ipad (say, you drop it and it breaks) then you have no mixer. The Line 6 is geared for people who have no clue about sound... and I have to say that's not a great paradigm if you want it to be versatile.

For a small input digital mixer, I'd look seriously at the StudioLive 16.4.2, as well as the X32 Compact. I'm torn between them, as the X32 has more features, but it's also more complex. Both of them sound pretty decent.

Once nice bit about the X32 is that you can add stageboxes and expand it later, if I understand correctly. There is no such option with the Presonus. Once nice bit about the Presonus is that you can easily see everything for a channel very quickly without having to rely on a screen.

If your budget allows it, also look at the Si Expression 1. It's in the same price range as the X32 Compact, but IMHO it sounds better and feels better (it's not as convoluted in the interface). It does have fewer features (no recording or scribble strips, for instance). but it's much more fluid to operate than the X32... this is a big plus on stage. It does have capability for expansion and recording... just not built in.

ALSO... not yet released but currently available for pre-order and in the same price range is the Allen & Heath QU-16. While this one is new, it's probably the best feature mix of the pack. No expansion (you can use stage boxes, but you are still limited to selecting 16 mix channels), but great recording and flexibility, as well as ease of use (if it's anything like the GLD-80, which it supposedly is). Further... the iPad app for these is supposed to be the same as the GLD, which is the best iPad app I've seen.

[Jools4001]

Thanks for your inputs everyone, I really appreciate different perspectives.

For my current band I think that the Mackie or Line 6 'toys' would be enough, since we're only weekend warriors who, by mutual agreement, gig a couple of times a month to allow space for other commitments. However we are passionate and serious about what we do so we still want the best (otherwise I wouldn't be on this forum right?). Since we are in the process of replacing our entire PA I think that it behoves us to look at digital mixers for the features and benefits they undoubtedly offer if you can afford them.

However, I've also got some major life changes coming up shortly since I've volunteered, and been accepted, for early retirement just shy of my 58th birthday. This is mostly driven by the fact that my wife was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis several years ago and it's very difficult to balance the increasing care work I need to do with the demands of a full time job - and I also want to maximise the time I have with her before her health deteriorates further.

I've played in bands since I was 16 and I'm still as passionate about it as ever. Along with playing in bands, I've also run sound for as long as I can remember and find that I'm very nearly as interested in this side of things as I am about my bass playing - although I'm sure I don't need to outline how addictive pro sound is to people on this forum. Since music has been such a big part of my life in the past, it's also going to play an increasing role in future, in terms of providing me with an outlet and as respite from being a carer - it's vitally important for me to look after my own health and wellbeing because I'll be no good to my wife or anybody else if my physical or mental health take a nosedive.

So thinking beyond the immediate needs of my own band, it seems to me that if I go for the Presonus or X32 options I will be also be able to add a few cabs and subs as time goes by and add to the J12 lites and W8s I'm building for my own band - giving me the option to run sound for bands in bigger venues. The X32 is around £2K, which is do-able for me (I've given up motorcycling as a result of my increased care commitment - great fun but too much risk of us both being in wheelchairs - so I'm going to sell my two Ducatis and turn them into musical stuff). The Presonus is £500 cheaper, so may still offer the best bang per buck.

I'm fortunate enough to be retiring in a comfortable financial position, so I wouldn't be relying on this to provide any income, again, just as a hobby that pays for itself, but it will give me something to do other than care work. I intend to play actively with my band for as long as I can, but at some point the audience may start to point and laugh at the old geezer playing bass and let me know that my time is up - so having another string to my bow and maintaining some level of involvement with live music is also appealing; well, at least it's better than sitting on the sofa watching reruns of Jerry Springer on daytime TV and waiting for the grim reaper...

[Bruce Weldy]

Jools, sorry to hear of your wife's health problems.....but kudos to you for being there for her.


Thought I'd pass along an aspect of the new digital boards (I'm assuming they all have the ability to do this) - recalling scenes.

I've had a run of business here lately. Some with my system and some with my board running other rigs. It's been six shows with 4 different bands.

Two of the bands I've done before, so I have their settings saved. With the other two, I ginned up a new scene and preloaded all of the settings for each instrument and vocal before I ever left home. The settings available on the Presonus are very good. In both cases, I just did a little tweaking during the line check and I was ready to go.

One of the bands called me back for a second show in the same venue - I didn't even hook up the laptop to RTA the system.....because it was saved from last time. Set up was lightening fast.

This Thursday and Friday I'll be doing shows with the rock band that I work with all the time.....once I get the room right, it's just a quick line check and we are ready to go. We no longer even do a "sound check" where the band plays a song - just don't need to. So, scene recall is a very valuable tool that shouldn't be overlooked...or under-used.

And it's not just for saving different bands, but if you are just using it for your own band, you can save all the different venues so you don't have to RTA every time you go there.

[BrentEvans]

The Presonus is £500 cheaper, so may still offer the best bang per buck.

Don't let that difference fool you. The X32 has far more features than the Presonus. The X32 is more "bang for buck" as it relates to features, but the Presonus hardware interface is much easier to use.

[dswpro]

I use an X32 regularly, have also used the Presonus mixers and still prefer the Yamaha consoles. (I use an M7, DM2000, 03D and 01v96) Please look seriously at a new or used 01v96 or 01v96i. The 01v96 is a 32 channel mixer with 12 pre-amps. If you need more pre-amps you can add an 8 ch external adat preamp for a couple hundred bucks. the Presonus desks are not expandable, neither is the x32. I won't use the Presonus desks for live work since they do not offer delays on outputs. Try adding 10-15 ms delay on your mains and 7-10 ms delay on your monitors ( but not on in-ears ) You will increase your gain before feedback. The X32 has a steep learning curve, particularly in routing inputs to outputs. The Yamaha desks are rock solid reliable. Ask any touring company. The input and output patching are easy to understand and flexible. The digital latency is minimal. I haven't seen a SAC with less. I write software for a living. I don't want Windows, IOS, or any operating system locking up between me and my audio during a performance, so any product which depends on a commonly infected operating system is out of serious consideration for me. The 01v does not have recallable pre-amp gains but you are probably going to plug the same sources into the same channels all the time anyway.
Every digital console comes with a learning curve. Whatever you choose, do yourself a favor and set the console up with a snake out front at least once for a rehearsal. If you can find a local operator familiar with the board, get some setup help. Dial in your monitors and your mains. Then save your settings and run your gigs from stage for your shows. If all goes well you should have to do very few adjustments from gig to gig, and perhaps turn up a fader during a solo or two from song to song.

Just my two cents.