Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

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Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#1 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Goodmorning everyone!

As some might have seen, I´m planning to build me some more tops and a couple of monitors, but, until I manage to decide exactly what to build, and find the time/money to do the builds, I was thinking to re-use my old 1x15" tops that I´ve had for a few years, mainly use them as Dj/Drum monitors, and tops on second dancefloor or even smaller rentals that doesnt warrant the DR 280s. The do however need to be updated a bit, last weekend we spent a few hours with the looks (they really looked like shit), so now they look alot better, painted them black with Blue Arans Tuff Cab paint, really nice paint! We also took out the old 1/4" and XLR sockets, and are putting the same Speakonx2 dishes we use in our BFM builds.
So now the attention turn to making them sound a bit better, they are equipped with an rather old 15" driver from HH Acoustics, 250w rms/8ohm is all I really know, but it looks and feel like a rather sturdy driver, and 2 Piezos that looks very much like the 1016s Bill uses. The piezos are just put in to baffle in the top of the speaker, spread out horisontally, maybe 15cm between them or so. No crossover in the cab, just a resistor in series with the piezos.

I was thinking that I should be able to make them sound a bit better with a new HF section and a crossover. Either I could build me a piezo array like BFM, likely a straight one, difficult to mount a melded one to a flat baffle. Or, even easier and alot quicker would be to buy an of the shelf compressiondriver and horn, for example these: http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id= ... e=category and http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id= ... e=category
Those would be within the budget for these cabs, should be able to crossover from the 15" at 1.5kHz, and should be able to get a fair bit better sound and spl then the current setup.
But, I´d need a crossover as well (not bi-amping these), and finding a suitable of the shelf product seems to be a bit more difficult than I thought at first, and frankly, a bit more expensive than I was hoping :shock:
But building a crossover as in Bills design seems rather easy, and the components are cheap, but I dont know the first thing about designing a crossover, and without knowing the parameters of the woofers, I´d be swimming in the big blue:P How do I "design" a simple crossover, for say 1.5kHz? Could I use something that Bill has already designed?

Maybe a of the shelf product like this: http://www.bluearan.co.uk/index.php?id= ... e=category would work well enough? Or could I make a simpler/cheaper on my self?

What do you guys think, should I even bother to update them? I´m thinking that since I run a small but expanding rentalcompany, it will always be good to have an extra pair of tops, and with a new HF section and some proper eq, they might sound good enough. We´ve already used them as Dj monitors a few times, and well, they get the job sort of done :P

But perhaps the money would be better spent on building more BFM tops, but that will be a lot more expensive, and it feels unnessesary to scrap the old tops, those 15" woofers feels like they are rather nice, nice aluminium baskets and stuff. Perhaps they could be used in a BFM cab, but without knowing the specs... I have tried to find the specs to no avail..

Thanks guys!

Robin
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

Grant Bunter
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
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Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#2 Post by Grant Bunter »

Hi Robin,
Synchronicity in action that you posted this, as I have been thinking about how to do much the same to a pair of old 15" POS as well, for multiple purposes.

There's a number of guides about crossover design on the net. Most of them revolve around knowing the specs of your drivers.
So you could measure the 15" and custom build a crossover.

My thoughts were very similar to yours, buy off the shelf crossovers, basically use the box for new drivers, pad it out etc, use them.
So if you can find some replacement drivers with charts and that matches the crossover, then you can mess with piezos or CD's.

If you put enough thought into it, they can only end up better than they were for the effort...

I'll watch this thread with interest.
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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LelandCrooks
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Location: Midwest/Kansas/Speaker Nirvana
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Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#3 Post by LelandCrooks »

Unless you can vertically mount a flat array in the cab, use the compression driver. There are lots of prebuilt xovers out there that will work fine, optimization it seems to me in this case is unnecessary. Just pick your xover point. You want it as low as you can afford. The lower the xover point, the more expensive the comp driver.

Those 15's start beaming IIRC about 800hz.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#4 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Hello Grant! I was actually thinking a little about you, It was your thread about you using your old 1X15"s that got me into seriously considering an upgrade of mine :) And yes, I borrowed the PoS name from you :D Interesting that you were thinking of upgrading yours as well! Great minds think alike and all that :fruit:

Yeah, I found a few posts and webpages about crossover design, and realised that I dont really know what I need to measure the drivers, so long since I messed around with electronics and such, so I´ll have to brush up on that :) Or, just buy an of the shelf crossover and get it done;)

Leland, Thanks, that was more or less the answer I was looking for:) I´ll see if I can find a slightly cheaper standard crossover, compared to the 20£ on Blue Aran, and perhaps cross lower then 1.5K then.. If I can find a driver within the budget that will go lower. I´ll take a look at some larger than 1" drivers, but I belive they are much much more expensive. I cant remember seeing any 1" that go below 1-1.2kHz. The Beyma driver I use in my DR´s is really nice, and go to 1.2, and arent really that expensive, but not in stock at Blue Aran...

As you can understand I prefer to order from as few suppliers as possible, shipping from some is really expensive.
Thats the main reason I order most of my stuff from Thomann, 15Euros shipping to Sweden, even when I ordered 135kg of Truss:P But they dont have any drivers or horn at a good price so.

Thanks guys!
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

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Bas Gooiker
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#5 Post by Bas Gooiker »

+1 on changing the piezo's for a compression driver! Use the Beyma CD10Fe, its fairly cheap, widely available in Europe and its imo the best value for money CD out there.

Can you post a picture of your driver possibly? There a quite a few of the older Harrison cabinets that are actually really nice, and quality made.
Life is just a game, don't take it to seriously!

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#6 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Bas Gooiker, yeah, the Beyma CD10fe is a great driver, I have 4 of them in my DR 280´s and they really sound good:) I´ll see if Blue Aran can get hold of them for me in a reasonable time, I cant find any other supplier with even close to their price (36£ ex vat). Bas Gooiker or anyone else that can recommend a supplier that carries the CD10fe and horns for a good price?

I must give some thumbs up for Blue Aran, good service, fast deliverys (even if the shipping is around twice that of Thomann) but most importantly, really good prices on both Eminence and other drivers, speakerpaint and other stuff :)

Of course I´d love to order from Leland, but shipping to Sweden is rather expensive, and he cant sell us the Eminence drivers, but I might order some PL and some other small things from him anyway soon :)

I was also looking at the P-Audio DM-D446 http://www.p-audio.co.uk/pdf/BM-D446.pdf It seems like I could cross at 1kHz with that one, and it only cost around 31£ @ Blue Aran, it looks like it could be a good substitute for the Beyma, if I cant get one those reasonably soon.

Then I´ll just need to find a reasonable crossover, 1-1.2kHz, or perhaps find a simple "standard"design and buy the components, I do know how to solder after all;)

Oh, and Bas, I´ll post a few pictures of the woofer when I get home, almost 100% that I have a few pic at home:) It does look like a good driver to me:)
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#7 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Leland, I agree completly, complete optimization isnt really the game here, more like updating to get it a bit more useable:) I´ll leave the topnotch stuff for my BFM builds:)

So, I found a few pictures of the woofer in my 1x15", here comes:
PoS 15 Woofer 1.jpg
PoS 15 Woofer 2.jpg
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6912
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#8 Post by Grant Bunter »

Hi Robin,

When I first got here to the forum, I was looking at P audio drivers (locally available, cheap).
Bill's advice was that they look good on paper, but the specs are a bit iffy. (something like model number identical on the box, but specs different between the box and the driver itself etc)
I assume the same could be said for their CD's. I guess you may find the same for any generic type CD though.
Still, if the price is right, buy extra's!
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#9 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Hi Grant,

Ah, okey, good to hear stuff like that:) And must say I have been suspecting something like that regarding P-Audio. But they might still be a good candidate for this upgrade ;) On the other hand, the Beyma CD10fe, that I have experience with, and I´ve only heard good things about it, is not really that much more expensive than the closest P-Audio, its like 5£ difference or so, so nothing :) If I can get the CD10fe in a reasonable timeframe, I think thats the way I´ll go.

Either I go with a cheap plastic horn, or spend a bit more for an alu-horn. Or, perhaps I could build a "Single version" of Bills double compressionhorn from the DR 280, or some of Bills horns that are built for a single driver. After all, I´m extremly happy with my DR´s :) And the comphorn was one part of the build that I really enjoyed:)
I´m gonna have to measure the cab tomorrow, see how high of horn I could fit in.
I know, this update was supposed to be a quick fix, but it is more fun build a bit more ;)

The Mid/HF section that Bill uses in the Omni Fullrange cabs have always intrigued me, it seems like a good idea to go three way and hornload a 6", and then cross really high to tweeter.
Funktion One does the same thing in many of there designs, I think they even hornload 8" to go from like 2-300Hz to 5-8kHz and then cross to a 1" cd.
Something like that would be fun to experiment with, but would kinda defeat the purpose of the upgrade :P
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

User avatar
Bas Gooiker
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#10 Post by Bas Gooiker »

Grant Bunter wrote:Hi Robin,

When I first got here to the forum, I was looking at P audio drivers (locally available, cheap).
Bill's advice was that they look good on paper, but the specs are a bit iffy. (something like model number identical on the box, but specs different between the box and the driver itself etc)
I assume the same could be said for their CD's. I guess you may find the same for any generic type CD though.
Still, if the price is right, buy extra's!
P Audio aren't bad drivers. They might not fit the specific specs to Bills designs, but they are very widely used in a lot of DIY speaker designs. There will always be different opinions about drivers, a lot of people say that the CD drivers by Eminence suck. Its just a matter of the right driver for the design.

Whichever CD + horn you choose will be an upgrade over 2 piezo's. If you can get a P-audio CD with a matching horn for a good price, go for it.

Just my 2c
Life is just a game, don't take it to seriously!

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#11 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Bas Gooiker, thank you for your opinion again! I also belive that any CD+horn will be better:)
If I cant get the CD10fe, it will likely be a slight cheaper P-Audio:) Their DM D446 seems good:) And on paper it looks a lot better then their slightly cheaper drivers, and if I´m gonna go this route, I might as well spend the extra 7-8£!

Anyone seen any other DYI compression horn that might be interesting?

Oh, and Bas Gooiker, did you regognize my woofer from the pics? :) Btw, love your Bender avatar!
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

User avatar
Bas Gooiker
Posts: 752
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 5:05 pm

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#12 Post by Bas Gooiker »

Are these old cabinets? Are they vintage cabs or are they part of the newer Performer range?

Fane did make some oem drivers for Harrisons, they are based on cheaper Fanes.
But looking at your magnet with the heatsinks they might actually be Goodmans. If i remember correctly they have a magnesium chassis, not aluminum.

Edit:
Found something... http://www.hhamplification.co.uk/speake ... /speak.jpg Something about the successors to the 1200h and the 1500h. Magnesium indeed.
Life is just a game, don't take it to seriously!

Robin_Larsson
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:01 pm
Location: Gothenburg, Sweden

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#13 Post by Robin_Larsson »

Well, I bought the cabs used about 12-13 years ago, and they were probably a couple of years old already, I´d guess that they are maybe 20 years old or so :p But I havent used them very much, not the last 8years or so, and they werent really in a bad shape.
The cabs are nicely made, with fixings for a protective frontplate, steel profiles around all edges and such.
Sadly the steel profiles looks rather bad now, but felt like waaay to much work to get them of, so we just painted the ugly plywood, it looked like plywood stained with some green/gray smear:P Ugly as hell, but now they look rather good in their new textured black:)

Yeah, those magnets have always felt good! Magnesium baskets sounds cool! I sadly dont know anything more about them:( Am I right in thinking that you think they seem to be worth keeping and upgrading?
Robin Larsson
Nzone Audio & Lights

Built so far:
2x 31.5" T48: 3015LF loaded
2x DR280: 3012HO/CD10fe loaded (bi-amped)
2x Jack 15 Lite: 3015HO loaded (Electric Bass)

Also using:
4x 27" T30: 3012LF loaded (Osse´s cabs, lives at Nzone HQ;)

Grant Bunter
Posts: 6912
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:12 am
Location: Ilfracombe Queensland Australia
Contact:

Re: Upgrading PoS 1x15"?

#14 Post by Grant Bunter »

Robin,
A little update.
In case you haven't upgraded already...

I've just upgraded my POS 15"s pretty much as discussed.
I bought some generic CD's 50W RMS and 800hz-20K, some generic 2k crossovers. Padded the cabs with leftover foam, slipped in a couple of NL-4 plates and did a small amount of cosmetic work, and the result was like the difference between night and day.

I haven't yet bothered to calculate box volume to see if the porting was adequate, maybe some other time...
Built:
DR 250: x 2 melded array, 2x CD horn, March 2012 plans.
T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
WH8: x 6 with melded array wired series/parallel.
Bunter's Audio and Lighting "like"s would be most appreciated...

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