Setting relative volumes in keyboard patches

[Harley]

Our keyboardist has a Roland RD700SX and Yamaha PSR8000 keyboard.

He uses a huge range of patches and each of these patches have factory settings whereby some are extremely quiet compared to others which can be REALLY LOUD.

We are also overcoming problems with his in ear monitor mixer which I don't want to go into details about here, and so it would be an ideal situation if we set his keys output level to the PA at one setting and let our sound man ( yes we have a sound tech at every gig now ) make the minor volume level adjustments during the gig.

The keyboardist will be able to adjust his keys level in his monitor via the mixer.

This means that we will have to adjust all his KB patches so that the relative levels will be on average what we'd expect them to be during the various songs, say 3 - 6 db max difference over the entire range from strings to brass ( instead of the HUGE difference we have now at the same volume setting on the KB )

Have any of you had to do this? If so, how did yo go about it to set the levels? We have manuals so the process of saving will be no problem, it's just more the mechanics of how the overall level range was set - in other words did you use an amp, condenser mike and RTA or did you just use your ears.

It's not possible to have the keyboardist adjust his own volume level for the PA output song to song, despite us trying a gazillion ways to overcome his volume problems. So there's no use going there, OK

[BrentEvans]

Our keyboardist has a Roland RD700SX and Yamaha PSR8000 keyboard.

He uses a huge range of patches and each of these patches have factory settings whereby some are extremely quiet compared to others which can be REALLY LOUD.
<snip>

Equalizing the patches should be done by ear, because some patches will sound softer if they don't have as much attack.

I typically keep a slow-release compressor on keys, set with a fairly low threshold and ratio, and this evens out the patch changes somewhat. At the very least, it prevents crazy louds from coming through.

[Grant Bunter]

Harley,
We had/have the same problem, just not sure exactly what he uses.
Our keyboard player manually adjusted his output settings on each sound (using the manual) so they all became similar in volume, one sound to the next.
IIRC he did it with headphones, ie by ears, but at least with headphones if something is "a little bit louder" it will be a tad more obvious.
It took a few goes and some prompting to get it more level across all the sounds he uses.
One of the most problematic areas was when he used split sounds, with variance in the two splits. In order to hear the quieter split when playing live he would turn up the master volume.
He struggled for a bit, because it always sounded fine at home.
He ended up having to save those as new saves/programme after editing, labeling them in some cases, as the song name.

Even with that done, it still relies on him using the same master volume setting gig to gig, and not getting excited and turning that up.
That should be less of a problem for you with someone out front.

Hope this helps...

[guitarkeys.com]

Keyboard with a performance preset is a MUST.

It's the only way I've found to get them right and keep them right from gig to gig.

Jamie

[James R]

I also work with a band where the 2 keys that have some louder volumes and quieter passages.
He runs his own amp for his monitoring, so for the FOH I assigned a compressor to each channel, I'm using a Yamaha 01V

[Studarl]

The best way if you can afford the time is hire a small venue, place your PA at the far end of the room facing you, or have people out front to tell you if things need to go up or down, and play all your songs through adjusting levels and saving song by song. Make sure you order your songs starting with the quieter ones (or what your keys player thinks are his weediest patches) first so you are always turning things down rather than up.

Stu

[biodad]

greetings
i have done years of synth programing and change many sounds nightly. the leveling of the different sounds should be done by ear at home through a full range system ( 15 inch cone to horn type style cabinet ) so it is somewhat similar in frequency response to your mains or f.o.h.

consider the ingredients of sound a synth offers: a patch, a combination. some companies call a single sound like piano a PATCH, or a program and other things. synthesisers typically allow combining these patches ( patches, for our use here) to make a layered or blended sound called a COMBINATION or performance or other things ( combination for our uses here ).
PATCH could be a piano.
COMBINATION could be piano, string, and french horn

level all your combinations equal but there still is the danger of hitting the patch switch enabling a patch sound which is usually louder than your combinations. synth designers should have the patch and combination buttons distanced so this cant accidentally happen.

in a band, i'll use white out to underline or circle the combination switch and or numeric select pad to see it better. one could tape a small 5 sided box if you will ( a lego block ? ) over the patch button if need be. silly but if you must do so to avoid accidentally hitting or engaging it
do so.

two factors to deal with;
#1 - make all patches equal volume - can't work if you use dense combinations involving many patches
#2 - make all combinations equal volume. A MUST. level all the combinations that you use while performing unless you want to have a "take a solo" combination and dont use a volume pedal

the trouble with leveling the individual patches is that some patches when adjusted full ( midi volume 127) still arent anywhere equal to most of the other patches. cutting the volume of most of these louder patches to equal the quieter ones will not achieve the sufficient individual patch volume ratio of the original combination.
example- combination is called GALAXY WAR. it uses 4 patches that have midi volume levels of 6, 33, 79, and 127. if you level the individual patch volumes, your whole synth now resides at a max midi output level of 6.

best solution is to level all your useful combinations and then change the midi channel # of combination you dont use to something different so their output is not transmitted. way less work. if a synth allows patches to have individual midi channels, then this would work with the patches too

radical volume changes are terrible and that is why no synth guys are ever in the mix in a rock type band. cant blame the sound person if your various levels go from nothing to full clip.

[Gregory East]

I was following up to the last couple of paragraphs. Are you saying many individual patches are useless by themselves because as loud as they go is too quiet? I would have thought you could save any of them as combinations at gig level, leaving the original patch at its own level for use in combinations. From what you're saying it seems the volume control has to make up the difference

[biodad]

greetings
i confuse myself when i talk.

Are you saying many individual patches are useless by themselves because as loud as they go is too quiet?

no. by themselves, patches should be loud enough as patches are usually as loud or louder than most combinations but in a combination, there can be a huge variance in midi volume numbers between two or more patches.

* we can level all patches equal but we've lowered the source ( patch ) that way and it is exactly like not gaining up your individual channel strips on the mixer and then hoping that the master L and R get you war volume in the room.

lets call a combination WAR TRUMPET
* it has 2 patches. one is fanfare brass set at midi volume 115 in the combination, and another patch called wind flute set at midi volume 10 in the combination.

* we have ALL patches leveled at midi volume number 15 so they are all equal to the quiet wind flute patch. if you select the wrong patch in a song, there is no volume jump but the combinations will not have the right "patch mix". there is a difference of 105 midi volume numbers between the two in the WAR TRUMPET combination yet only 15 midi volume numbers total to play with now that they are all level. the combination is going to be too quiet now and getting the individual patch volume ratio correct is more difficult.

* if the source is too quiet, it is too quiet. someone ought to create a synth with every patch and combination equal so an accidental wrong button push only changes tone, not volume. might not be possible? they program different dynamic levels to keep listening to the different sounds interesting. makes me heave.

* individual patches being level screw up combinations as it's almost impossible to get the same sounding result from the combination or have anything left volume wise for the mixer. i bet a music store keyboard sales person can explain this much better. but do level all combinations that you use and set all the others to a different midi number so they dont sound. this way you dont have to level the ones you dont use.

[Gregory East]

They do say third time is the charm.

Say you've got ten patches and twenty combinations of them in use. What are your options?

I think you're saying levelled patches get assigned a new midi volume which carries over when it is in use in a combination? How about making all useful solo patches into single patch combinations and levelling the combinations?

[biodad]

hi - hang in there, you are serious and tough, you'll end up with what you want.

I think you're saying levelled patches get assigned a new midi volume which carries over when it is in use in a combination?

correct.

Say you've got ten patches and twenty combinations of them in use. What are your options?

my options are upsetting everyone who hears me with my erratic level changes or being in the mix and contributing to the music because all my combinations are the same volume because i took the time to level them.

How about making all useful solo patches into single patch combinations and levelling the combinations?

when i say a solo combination ( not solo patch ), i mean it's my turn to floor the pedal and show the guitarist that 6 stringers are sissies.
think guitar solo but even better because it's you on keys.

this solo combination is louder by 2 db to 3 db if i'm in a band. if i cant turn the level of the patch up in combination mode because it is maxed, i have to dupe the patch and raise it's volume in patch mode. i then would have to use the new duped louder patch for my solo combination

i view a single patch like the grand piano as a channel fader on a 16 channel mixer. many faders but not at the same physical position. they are all not flat like a table top. some are pushed higher than other. these are the source of the mixers sound. if that source is reduced too low at this stage ( channel fader or patch volume ) there may be little that can be done at the master L & R fader ( combination )

here's how to see this in real time.
* find a cool combination with 3 or more patches involved.
* locate extra patch locations that you feel comfortable deleting by writing over
* dupe the original patches to those new location numbers and for organization sake, put a # or a * at the end of the name so you know it is the new dupe
* write down what each original patch volume number is before you alter or level it
* by ear, take the new duped patches and raise or lower their individual volume to that of the average patch.
* in the combination, use the new altered leveled patches, not the original ones
* listen to the combination. whacha tink? stings too loud now? that little bell thing gone when you hit hard?

a patch that has had it's midi volume number lowered too much is like trying to get a real soft singer in the mix through the monitors. the voice and the quiet patch wont be heard as needed. with the vocalist, you can pump the mike volume and the mike feeds back, with midi, there is nothing left to pump. both sources are too quiet for the average volume required

i hope this helps. if not, shoot again. i bet there's cats here who know more about this than i do or who can say it better who might wanna chime in. i've got to set up gear and work tonight and will be gone till early thursday morning. be healthy and prosper

[Gregory East]

Can we dumb this down?

I think of patches as single featured sounds, combinations as mixes of patches.

Is there any reason there can't be combinations consisting of a single patch when you want it in isolation? Wouldn't that solve everything in one swoop?

[doncolga]

Our keyboardist has a Roland RD700SX and Yamaha PSR8000 keyboard.

He uses a huge range of patches and each of these patches have factory settings whereby some are extremely quiet compared to others which can be REALLY LOUD.

This means that we will have to adjust all his KB patches so that the relative levels will be on average what we'd expect them to be during the various songs, say 3 - 6 db max difference over the entire range from strings to brass ( instead of the HUGE difference we have now at the same volume setting on the KB )

Have any of you had to do this? If so, how did yo go about it to set the levels? in other words did you use an amp, condenser mike and RTA or did you just use your ears.

This should be really simple. What ever sounds they are and however they are used, set the levels by ear, and I'd use headphones. If any sounds have lots of deep bass content...watch out for those, again set those with headphones that have bass response you can trust based on how bass from quality sources sound through them. Run your keyboards as hot as possible while still leaving yourself some headroom if needed, so probably about 80% on the main volume. I HATE showing up somewhere and the keyboard volume is at 5% up

[biodad]

greetings. in motel room with a little time before work. as long as all your used combinations are the same volume, you've won the game. you can have a combination with just one patch in it, and level it there in combination mode. i also agree with doncongla's comments. be sure to change midi channel #'s on unused combinations for safety.

the bulk of my babble was just to mean that if you alter patch volume in patch mode a real lot, be it up or down, it will screw up some of the best sounding factory combinations. mess with it and once it is all set level, touch every button on that machine while amp is down and make sure nothing jumps out and supprises you and your cones
good luck

[biodad]

greetings - might be best to pm me. i am a synth programming geek and can show you how a synth mod wheel can work as a volume control to fade in other patches within a combination. some of my combinations are set up to fade in huge string and brass ensembles and anything i want as i move the wheel. adds lots of emotion and power to certain choruses and so on . .

my combinations all hold 8 patches so i can drag up to 7 other totally different patches or sounds in with the push of the wheel. i can have them be splits and / or layers in certain zones, or just double the volume of whatever patch i am using which is cool cause when i want to solo, without a program change or volume pedal, or without taking up another combination location, i have a perfectly adjusted newly faded in solo patch which is a fool proof way to go from rhythm to solo back to rhythm.

your stage synth has to have a mod wheel that transmits midi controller #7 = volume. this basically allows me to drag one synth to the job and sound like i have at least 2 or 3 up there. i use to use it to do decent fast /slow leslie changes on B3 patches or make a vox organ patch a farfisa patch with vibrato. since i bought the neo ventilator leslie stomp pedal, which is spot on perfect, the wheel is now 7 extra synth patches per each combination when i want them. another cool trick is to spend $10 and maybe 30 minutes to wire up and solder an on/off switch from the mod wheel to a 1/4 inch jack so a foot stomp box works the wheel and leaves you both hands for performing. i'm not a real hot player but i get the most out of my synth and often am accused of having a sequence running. no, it's my mind and that wheel that is running

if you wanna pm me regarding some cool synth tricks, anyone that is, please mention that you did - in this thread - as i seldom check my personal profile or where ever it is we pm each other. us keyboard guys have so much sonic power when done right, provided the guitarist is done acting like a guitarist . . .