Potential LARGE Build - Questions...

[JDM570]

Hello Everyone!

I've been looking over the various offering of BFM Cabinets, and am thinking that they may be the right fit for a project i'm about to start.

I have the need to build a Concert Style PA system for an outdoor venue. There is a pavilion that has 3 walls around the stage area, but the audience area is open (other than the roof and support pillars). Stage is about 7ft off the ground, audience area is a long rectangle. The pavilion can hold 2,000 people, and to it's side is an open field for 'overflow'.

The dominant style of music that will be played at this venue ranges from some country to mostly classic rock. Maybe some newer rock / heavy metal thrown in the mix. In addition, the venue is also considering booking National B, C List bands.

QUESTION #1: I had made a post on PSW Forums - and got flamed for about 3 pages about the idea of using Custom Cabs, particularly BFM for this need. (With the exception of saying the LabSub is widely accepted now ) A lot of what was said didn't hold merit, but one point did stick in my mind. It was stated that Custom Cabs are not Rider-Friendly. I understand this may be the case for A-List bands, but don't know how much it applies to B and C-List. I researched for about 4 hours, combing through Google finding Rider's for bands in this field... I wasn't able to find any Rider's that specifically stated an 'approved list' of PA Components. Closest I came was the Rider for Charlie Daniels that stated "Must provide a quality sound system". The only other specifics I saw all related to the processing / mixing side. (i.e. what brand of mixer, microphones, etc) Would you expect that the use of BFM cabs would have any real effect on this venue being Rider-Friendly for the class-acts they're looking to book?

With this in mind... I'm considering building Titan 48's and DR 300's. By my estimate, I'm 'guestimating' a quantity of 8 for each, totaling 16 cabinets between subs/mains. Due to the height of the stage, I'm unsure about how I would position the subwoofers (center cluster -vs- v-coupled) Stage is about 50ft wide, 7ft tall. The audience can be as close as 20ft from the front of the stage. The mains will be hard-mounted directly to the 12"x12" vertical support beams on the side of the stage going up to the roof. Was thinking 4 per side, in a vertical line array style, with the top speaker being against the horizontal support beam, and the other three cascading below it at a slight curve for optimal audience coverage. (BTW there is still about 10ft above the horizontal beam i'd be mounting to before you reach the actual roof)

QUESTION #2: Which subwoofer arrangement do you think would work best for this venue?

QUESTION #3: Given the size of the audience area, and lack of walls - do you think 8 mains and 8 subs is too much? not enough? just right?

QUESTION #3: Do you think the mounted line array style would be the best choice for the mains, given the possible close proximity of the audience, or would 4 per side stage stacking be a better suit for this? (Would still get the mains a pretty decent height above head level)

Looking forward to hearing from some of you that have real-world experience with BFM Cabinets. If you can shed any light on the overall SPL, quality of sound, etc, would be greatly appreciated as well

Thanks

P.S.: an interesting picture I found while Google'ing...


That's the interior of a EAW KF760...
Currently sells for $9,103 per cabinet from a well known retailer....
Anyone able to see why that cabinet should cost nearly $10,000 each!?
Another thing I noticed... someone had said on PSW that there was no way possible that the BFM DR300 with 1x12" and 2xCD's could compete with EAW 2x12 + 2x10 + 2CD's... in looking at the interior of the EAW - I noticed something odd... the 2x12"s that are loaded in the back aren't really a true 'horn load' by my understanding? notice that the horn sides run parallel to each other the full length of the back and sides of the cabinet, without any increase in horn size, and no flair at the end... use of 2x12" -vs- 1x12" is only a difference of 3dB not horn loaded... so why would it be 'impossible' for a properly horn loaded 1x12" to outperform a 2x12" that isn't?... just food for thought from a semi-noob

[JDM570]

Also wanted to add what the sound system end would mainly be comprised of...

Will be running 2x16 channel Presonus 16.4.2 mixers (firewire bridged together for 32 channels). Multiple Crown amplifiers to push mains/subs/monitors. Processing / Delays / EQ, etc will be controlled by DBX Driverack 260's.

Considering Bi-Amping the DR300's and running the HF and LF through the DBX Driverack 260's outputs separately... this way I could better tune the short delays between the 1x12" and 2xCD's, then the system as a whole... not sure if this will really be necessary though?

[SeisTres]

Since this will be a permanent install and it will be quite big, bi-amping would have more advantages than disadvantages. Usually, if it's a small portable system, internal crossovers are preferred as they simply the system, however, this is not the case.

As to how they compare in spl to other options out there, it is as simple as comparing the spl charts and factoring in the wattage figures. From others measuring the designs here and doing simulations of the cabs, the charts are what they are.

As for the sound quality, then you could build one, fine tune it and see how you like it.

And for the music you will be playing, the T48's are perfect. Load with 15" and build as wide as you can go. The more you have the lower they can go, and even with one cab, it has really nice extension for rock and country.

[guitarkeys.com]

"Anyone able to see why that cabinet should cost nearly $10,000 each!?"

Yes....

Jamie

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

T48s go as low as you need, flat to 32Hz with that many, but as it's a permanent install I'd go 2x12 series wired T60, the same number of cabs.

Anyone able to see why that cabinet should cost nearly $10,000 each!?

It's called 'what the traffic will bear'. And you're correct about the twelves, they're not horn loaded. Rather it's closer to a bandpass configuration. You can't compare charts, as EAW doesn't publish any for the 760 series. But they do give the LF sensitivity as 96dB.

[JDM570]

Thanks for your replies!

SeisTres, I'd figured the Titan 48 would be a better choice than the Tuba 60 for the rock genre' dominance, seeing as I won't have much need for really low extension and will more be looking for the 'Chest Punch' around 80Hz. I will be also building a much smaller scale indoor system and for inside. (300-400 people max). For this, I am considering the Tuba slim-line built to fit underneath the indoor stage. (Once a week the music played indoor is House/Club style, so the low extension would really be nice indoors)

What were your thoughts regarding my estimated number of T48s and DR300s to fill the outdoor area of 2,000 or so people? Do you think 8 & 8 is overkill, or about right?

SeisTres, Bill,
My only other concern is in regard to the dispersion of the horns on the DR300 - from a glance, I would guess that those are each 60x40 horns mounted vertically... For the way that I will be utilizing these speakers (pseudo line array)... would it be better mount the horns side-by-side, and go with a wider horizontal and narrower vertical dispersion horn such as this? Looks like from the 5KHz-16KHz the vertical beamwidth is <20 degrees:


http://www.faitalpro.com/products/sched ... =903020110

All-In-All, I plan on following the build specs, but thought this one change in horn dispersion may yield better results for my particular need.

Looking forward to your reply

[JDM570]

Bill,

could you give me a little insight as to why running 8 Tuba60's (2x12") would yield better results than 8 Titan 48's?

(Just wrapping my mind around it lol)

Thanks

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Bill,

could you give me a little insight as to why running 8 Tuba60's (2x12") would yield better results than 8 Titan 48's?

(Just wrapping my mind around it lol)

Thanks

The 16 ohm impedance makes them more damage resistant. But you can do the same with 2x12 3012LF loaded T48s. The HF horns of the DR300 are no longer those pictured on the website, they're now purpose built. There are no off the shelf horns that will work.

[Gregory East]

I'd guess series wired super premium drivers will be ultra reliable. And you can handle dubstep if needs be.

[JDM570]

Awesome (Bill)

I was hoping something like that rather than trying to retro-fit a consumer horn to fit the DR300 to suit my needs (especially considering that particular consumer horn runs about $120.00 a piece x 2 per cabinet x 8 cabinets)

Now just to figure out how many of each to build, and whether to go with the Titan 48's or Tuba 60's - Not a huge difference in size / cost... and having the lower extension there even if it's only useful now and then wouldn't hurt... so might have to take a second look at the Tuba 60.

Thanks again!

[JDM570]

Gregory,

Good Point... the indoor house system will be used for dubstep, house, techno - and I think a pair of Tuba 60 Slims V-Coupled under the stage will be awesome for 300 people... but would be nice to be able to hold an outdoor DJ/Dance gig in the pavilion and have the ability to still hit the synthesized lows found in the genres.

Thanks

[JDM570]

On a side note / slightly different subject...

I've already spoken with the owner's of the venue, they know the quality of work I put into my builds, and also know of the quality of sound custom cabs can generate (I use my own designed 6th order bandpass subs at their venue inside twice a week, and have a tendency to rattle bottles off the shelf lol) They are 100% sold on the concept of me building custom cabinets for their outdoor concert PA.

I have 1 more hurdle to overcome, and that's a meeting with their investor the 2nd week of January. If he gives me the green light on the project, then it's a go. From what I've been able to gather, the investor is a down-to-earth kind of person, that you can sit down with and have a business meeting over a beer...

With this being said... any pointers on 'selling' the investor on why it would be better to go with the BFM Cabs -vs- Professional Manufactured? (Other than the obvious HUGE amount of $$$$ it would save him.)

[DJPhatman]

I'll take a stab at question #1, and tell you most riders will state "No Custom Cabinets". Most National B & C groups bring in their own Board Engineer, and they need consistency in equipment. Tri-amp DR300+Tuba/Titan/whatever sub you choose, set it and forget it. If it's possible, build everything in to the structure of the venue. This will prevent "It doesn't look right" changes to sub placement, or movement of the mid/high boxes.

As for the sales pitch: Print out all applicable SPL charts, and the comparison charts that are available. Real eye-openers.

[JDM570]

DJPhatMan,

Thanks, very good point about trying to build everything into the building's structure. didn't even think about that I could actually build 8x Tuba 60's right under the outdoor bandstage with it being 7ft tall. (kind of a 'duh' considering that is my plan for the indoor stage that's only 24" tall - building tuba-slims under it)

Thanks

[JDM570]

Think there would be any issue regarding vibration from 8xTuba 60's under the stage? (in regards to vibration going through to the band that's playing)

If so, is there a way to lessen the vibration that's going up through the stage floor? (floor is wood btw)