Listening in the band

[Gregory East]

I wasn't very clear. I don't know how many tunes the drummer is bolloxing up but a couple of new fully under control tunes a week might have you a lot happier in a couple of months time.

[DaveK]

IMO, a drummer should not be the lead singer because the audience can't see them very well and that means they can't connect with the band very well.

Check this out
http://youtu.be/6j0xlRqrKQ8

Proves my point.

For those that didn't follow the link, it's a band where the drummer is the lead singer. He's *standing* front-and-center where you expect the lead singer to be and playing drums while singing.

I guess I should qualify my assertion and say a drummer playing a traditional kit in the traditional position should not be the lead singer. However, that's quite a mouthful to say so I like my original statement better

It's certainly true that it can be made to work, sort of, but it's always going to require compromises that detract from the show. I've seen a couple bands where the drummer sang a lot of leads and found them less enjoyable to watch. Maybe it doesn't matter if you are playing background music where nobody is watching anyway, but for a band where visuals matter I stand by my assertion.

Now back to Harley's quest to teach an old dog new tricks. If anybody can do it, Harley can.

[biodad]

greetings
this may help. mention that EVERYWHERE people are, there is PERFECT music with a PERFECT GROOVE. mention that the dancing girls can tell that the tempo is speeding up and changing and they know that it's the drummer who keeps the time so they know it's the drummers fault. if that doesnt get the guy to care, you're dead in the water with it.

lazy bands performing the same 50 worn out easy to learn songs for years and years and years is one reason why karaoke took half our nights or gigs ( in america ). why be a bad dance band right? girls spend more time getting prettied up than the whole band does learning a song, they wanna get out and display their virtues. perform the cupid shuffle and speed the hell out of it or mess with the tempo and see if you have dancers in 2 minutes.

many drummers and percussionists dont care and that is why they perform with bad meter. i've said this before - in 4/4 time, there are sixteen 16th notes per measure. cats who speed songs up usually do so by only allowing enough time for fifteen of the required 16th notes in every measure. cheat each bar one 16th note of time and in 2 minutes it is obviously sped up.

last thing- hip hop, disco, lady gaga songs, call it what you want, the gals prefer to dance to this because it grooves, not because it's pre recorded and mixed into the room perfectly. it's because dancers perform too on the dance floor, and they can groove and they want groove. i myself like seeing beautiful gals dancing vs sitting down while i perform.
now the hyprocrit in me- if the room and dance floor is always packed and you're getting paid more than you're worth as is the case every time i perform, shut up, ignore it, go to the bank

[Harley]

.... i myself like seeing beautiful gals dancing vs sitting down while i perform... shut up, ignore it, go to the bank

OK....

.....but I was really trying to eak out some ideas on whether or not I was right that the drummer should listen to the bassist ( as well as the bassist listen to the drummer ) and guidance on how I might fix what seems an impossible situation at the moment.

Sheesh

[Gregory East]

Eeek, egads, it's eke out a comment time.

Since he isn't averse to a click track you can put it in his IEM mix and see if it sublimates. I play the odd gig with a dude who has scary solid time, he says he learned it playing with a click track for his old man's cover band.

[wounded horse]

Right, sorry but I think this is a no fix situation. I've read every post in this topic and what it comes down to to me is, he doesn't care enough. Like DaveK, I don't like to see a drummer at the back, at a kit, doing lead vocals. End of, for me. I had this issue with our drummer way back when he was singer and drummer (we've since got a female lead singer in) and I told him he was a better singer than drummer which didn't go down well. The trouble with that was, and still is, that he can't learn lyrics so has a stand with all the words beautifully laminated in a folder. OK if you can hide them behind a kit but I can't bear to see it at the front. Now that 90% of the vocal duties are with our lovely vocalist, the drumming has got worse. Cart blanche to become animal off the muppets. And so, it's all become too much work. Sort the sound, sort the drumming, sort the song choices, sort the arrangements. I just want to play bass, dammit, which I do well, I don't have a problem stating.

[Harley]

...so has a stand with all the words beautifully laminated in a folder. OK if you can hide them behind a kit but I can't bear to see it at the front...

Oh dear, our lead female singer has a music stand with a black folder out front ( she's an awesome singer btw - once we overcame the mic problems )....so it sounds like I'm doomed really whichever way I go

[chenry78]

.... i myself like seeing beautiful gals dancing vs sitting down while i perform... shut up, ignore it, go to the bank

OK....

.....but I was really trying to eak out some ideas on whether or not I was right that the drummer should listen to the bassist ( as well as the bassist listen to the drummer ) and guidance on how I might fix what seems an impossible situation at the moment.

Sheesh

IMHO---My two cents; its a drummer and bassist tango, a game of catch where each musician takes turn keeping the tempo.

My bassist and in I have played together since '98 and the guitarist since '91 so we all kinda ride the same page... there's a head nod between myself and the bassist that signifies changes and a separate head nod that says "hey, im gonna toy around so keep the tempo" and each of us focuses on tempo accordingly.

[Scott Brochu]

My bassist and in I have played together since '98 and the guitarist since '91 so we all kinda ride the same page... there's a head nod between myself and the bassist that signifies changes and a separate head nod that says "hey, im gonna toy around so keep the tempo" and each of us focuses on tempo accordingly.

Good for you. That's what it is suppose to be like. Communication to the fullest extent. That's when it becomes fun and everything falls into place.
IMO that is what a well oiled band suppose to be able to do. I am not saying Harley's band is not well tuned, just think it needs a few dabs of lubricant in the right places . The drummer needs to communicate with Harley when he needs to lean on him for keeping the tempo while he concentrates on singing and visa verse. But the biggest thing he needs to focus on is his timing which means he needs to listen to the band. I vote for more practices.
Harley, did you say you guys practice once a week?

[Mikey]

Do you ever JUST play with the drummer? Maybe the two of you just haven't found that GROOVE together yet (?). If he doesn't want to hear you (as you said), maybe it's because he's not excited about hearing the two of you playing together. The only way to possibly overcome that is to flat-out jam with him, outside of the band. No pressure, no "songs", nobody else there for distraction ... just the two of you, groovin. Lay down a pattern, solo on it, break it down, build it up, go fukn nuts. Have fun! Take some aggressions out! Push each others' limits! Just maybe, once he realizes there's something THERE between you, he'll want to hear you, and trust you enough to let you into his own little world onstage.

[Harley]

Do you ever JUST play with the drummer?.

No we don't get the time. The vital point is that he doesn't want to listen to me because "he has so much other shit going on in he in ear he needs to pay attention to" That's the main thrust of my thread - is it reasonable he acts that way and if I can't change that attitude, any ideas on how I might work around it. As alluded to a couple of posts ago, I have made a plan of action and I'll see how that goes.

The drummer needs to communicate with Harley when he needs to lean on him for keeping the tempo while he concentrates on singing and visa verse. But the biggest thing he needs to focus on is his timing which means he needs to listen to the band. I vote for more practices.
Harley, did you say you guys practice once a week?

We used to practice once a week, but 95% of the practice is devoted to getting the vocals right and going over the arrangement. That alone is intense enough and leaves little room for the drummer and I to practice the groove. Anyhow, what I mentioned everal posts ago is that whatever we manage to fix at the practice bass/drum groove wise, tends to turn to shit on the night

We are an excellent group vocals wise though - one of the top bands in our area from that point of view I would honestly say. That's why with getting the groove tight and right ( if we can ) it's worth pursuing every avenue before voting with my feet.

[wounded horse]

Bumping and asking if the drumming issues are moving to any sort of resolution.

[Harley]

Bumping and asking if the drumming issues are moving to any sort of resolution.

Well, our gig last weekend went almost perfectly drumming wise. This was such a surprise because of all the problem riddled gigs previous Even the sound tech noticed the 'lack of drum problems'

I am not even sure why it went OK because I did not speak to him about it. I was simply following the plan of "gathering evidence" - of which there was very little.

Hopefully he continues like he did last Saturday's gig - that would be a huge relief really.

[Gregory East]

He's probably realised by now that when Harley puts a problem under the microscope it gets solved, so he solved it before the problem solving became a problem.

[Tom Smit]

He's probably realised by now that when Harley puts a problem under the microscope it gets solved, so he solved it before the problem solving became a problem.

That would be "problematic" at best.