BillFitzmaurice.info

"The one rule that cannot be changed is that the cab has to be absolutely air tight".Thats in the plans for a reason,that means a pin hole is enough to destroy the driver.I would stop now until i could get PL or another "expanding" Polyeurethane glue that has been suggested to you,it would be a shame to put in all that time and not experience the true end result.You wanna know how much of a headache it is ? I had a T48 with a leak that i couldnt find,blew the driver twice,i THREW THAT CAB AWAY,thats how much of a headache it is.

I'll start by saying that please remember english is not my main language and I agree with all that's being said and truly appreciate. I'm not trying to confront or disagree with you, I'm asking for your opinion because we really need your help.

we'll stop the build until we find such a glue! You've scared me enough. And if you say the simplest solution is just to scrape the existing glue and just cover with a bead of PL, then that is exactly what We'll do.

I'm still not quite certain what you mean by "expanding" adhesive. it means if I leave it overnight to glue the squeezeout will be bigger in the morning?

or in the case of the picture I posted, there should squeeze out a bit over time and since ours didn't it's not expanding?

I've found out that basically Soudal and and Pattex and all those brands (including Loctite) have different product names in Portugal.

if you go for example to Soudal's PT page
( http://www.soudal.com/soudalweb/product ... =636&g=857 )

you'll see that no 60A exists. There is although a PU Construct EXTRA Fast and a PU-Bond 2K.

that's the "professional" products.

there's also a "consumer" page but products mostly have a portuguese name instead of a code.
( http://www.soudal.com/soudalweb/product ... =639&g=897 ).

Ours is "Cola e Veda" which roughly translates to Glue and Seal.

The result is the same with all other webpages. different names and labels but probably the same products with a different face.

I'll start looking online for glue but I'm struggling not to find nothing with such a big offer around me.
(and I can buy them for less than 5€ instead of paying 15+ per each).

Maybe I should email Soudal PT and wait for them to tell me what's the 60A equivalent ?

Any help appreciated. Cheers



EDIT:

I think I finally have one !!

Sika Bond T2.

Here's the official product description

High viscous (thixotropic), high strength elastic adhesive
1-part, Polyurethane ready to use
Powerful initial grab (green strength)
Fast curing
No need to grout the bonded parts
Strong adhesion to many different substrates
Elastic, sound-dampening adhesive
Reduces vibrations (vibration- and shock resistant)
Compensation of substrate unevenness
Non-corrosive and avoids galvanic corrosion
High weathering- and ageing resistance
Adhesive can be sanded
.

Tests
Approval / Standards Bonded part instant holding capacity (C.E.B.T.P. Report N° 2352-7-270).
Acoustic insulation to piping vibration (C.E.B.T.P. Report N° 713-970-0011).


This is for sale near us. It's about 15€ per 310ml but I guess it's better than having leaks !

jmanso wrote:if you go for example to Soudal's PT page
( http://www.soudal.com/soudalweb/product ... =636&g=857 )

you'll see that no 60A exists. There is although a PU Construct EXTRA Fast and a PU-Bond 2K.

You are right and I stand corrected. It seems they do not make the 60A product anymore. That is a pity, I have used it for several years and it was very good, yet affordable. Where I live there are similar products from Bison and Pattex, but they cost two to three times as much.

The extra fast might work for some aspects of your build, but I can see a problem on large sheets like the 2nd side on your T48. I am afraid it may well cure too much before you have laid out adhesive for the entire side panel.

AntonZ wrote:
You are right and I stand corrected. It seems they do not make the 60A product anymore. That is a pity, I have used it for several years and it was very good, yet affordable. Where I live there are similar products from Bison and Pattex, but they cost two to three times as much.

The extra fast might work for some aspects of your build, but I can see a problem on large sheets like the 2nd side on your T48. I am afraid it may well cure too much before you have laid out adhesive for the entire side panel.

I think they still sell outside here.if you search on their international page it still shows.

What about that sika? Seems to be pretty much the same as pl. filling i'm assuming means expansive

so... another status update.

We've spent all of last afternoon with a scalpel and a screwdriver removing all the glue we could see as to prepare surfaces for new adhesive.

all panels glued are just way too dry to be ripped apart so my theory is that the current polyurethane will hold everything in place and the new expansive one will be applied on all edges so as to finish any leaks that may exist.

please mind that only panels 1,2,3,4 are glued at the moment.

I've mailed both Soudal and Henkel asking them about their expansive poliurethane adhesives currently on sale in Portugal.

Soudal has replied that they currently have 2 expansive polyurethane, 1 regular and one fast dry.

Product number is Pro40P for the regular and pro 45P for the fast drying one.

they've got the specs in their website,
http://www.soudal.com/soudalweb/images/ ... Pro40P.pdf

but I'm assuming the part we need is this:

Characteristics:
- Easy application
- Professional quality
- Foaming penetration action to fill bond cavities
- Fast drying
- Water resistance: D4 (DIN EN 204)
- Can be used on damp wood

it says foaming penetration action, but it's a glue, so I'm guessing thats the "expansive" part.

what do you guys think ? It's supposedly the same as the PU60A.

thoughts?

I'm sorry for the amount of "glue spam" I'm leaving in this thread, but hopefully this will be helpful in the future for anyone looking for alternatives (and specially what not to use) in Europe.

I've received a new e-mail from Soudal, they've told me that the PU Construct (PU60A) that has been used on other builds in this forum now has three new names.

PU Construct Extra Fast

Purocol

Purocol Express.


Extra Fast dries in under 30 min, purocol takes around 2 hours and purocol express in about 1 hour.

They are all made to be applied with a caulking gun and they are all expandable. They say on their description "Filling characteristics, suitable for uneven surfaces".

We are going to go with either Purocol or Pro 40P as they have the slowest drying times.

for reference, here's the spec sheet for Purocol.

http://www.soudal.com/soudalweb/images/ ... urocol.pdf

jmanso wrote:- Foaming penetration action to fill bond cavities

That is sounding a whole lot more like it. You will see when you start using it that it expands... you hear it expanding as it dries... lots of little pops as it increases in volume.

From the soudal spec:

State of Surface: clean, free of dust and grease
Preparation: the adhesive cures under the influence
of humidity. Slight moistening of the substrate(s)
improves curing rate and gap filling characteristics
as adhesive foams up to penetrate cavities

The slight moistening line as well is a great sign... PL needs moisture to cure

escapemcp wrote: That is sounding a whole lot more like it. You will see when you start using it that it expands... you hear it expanding as it dries... lots of little pops as it increases in volume.

Thanks! That was the missing information I needed!!

We are going to buy a cartridge of Purocol and try to test glue 2 leftover bits of wood.

Hopefully we'll see nice expansion and nice squeezeout on it to make sure we are on the right track.

If all goes well tomorrow night I'll have some pics of that test to share here to see if everything is up to spec.

Thanks for the help

Listen for the 'popping' sound as the glue dries, expands and forces it's way out of the joint. Also, if you break the skin of the squeezeout a while after joining the 2 pieces of wood, you often find that the glue forces it's way out of the 'hole' you just created... reminds me of those 'snake' indoor fireworks - see this vid (go to 4:45) if you don't understand what I am on about:


I bought 2 different types of the Lumberjack gel... I got a 5 minute version and a 30 minute version. Having the quicker curing version is handy so that you can speed up if you need to. People on here have commented that the 30minute stuff will be stronger, but I used 5 minute on an entire Tuba 30, except for the final side, and it seems plenty strong enough. I also (accidentally) dropped a half built Otop from 6 feet (2m) up which had only used the 5 minute stuff and it just bounced.... that's when I realised how good this PU/PL/Lumberjack stuff is!

escapemcp wrote:Listen for the 'popping' sound as the glue dries, expands and forces it's way out of the joint. Also, if you break the skin of the squeezeout a while after joining the 2 pieces of wood, you often find that the glue forces it's way out of the 'hole' you just created... reminds me of those 'snake' indoor fireworks - see this vid (go to 4:45) if you don't understand what I am on about:
I bought 2 different types of the Lumberjack gel... I got a 5 minute version and a 30 minute version. Having the quicker curing version is handy so that you can speed up if you need to. People on here have commented that the 30minute stuff will be stronger, but I used 5 minute on an entire Tuba 30, except for the final side, and it seems plenty strong enough. I also (accidentally) dropped a half built Otop from 6 feet (2m) up which had only used the 5 minute stuff and it just bounced.... that's when I realised how good this PU/PL/Lumberjack stuff is!

those indoor fireworks are def cool

I've called the store the manufacturer gave me and they have it in stock, I'll go after work to grab it and try to test glue something to post here.

I'll even try to poke a little hole in it to see if it expands a bit like the video.

The reason I'd like the slower bonding one is only because as I said we'll only be able to make progress of about 1 panel a day, so the more time we have to make sure it's set right the better.

Also, since I'll be using it to cover some already existing joints, I figured the longer it takes the best chance on it doing a proper job.

the only part we wont be able to reach is the little space between the reducer and the first side panel, but I'm confident that by applying a bead on the top will be enough.

jmanso wrote:If all goes well tomorrow night I'll have some pics of that test to share here to see if everything is up to spec.

Sounds like good news from Soudal, nice
I will see what pics you post and compare to squeeze out on my 60A build cabs.

Hey. Like planned we test glued two bits of leftover ply.

Initial test was very encouraging. Of course I can only take pics tonight after it dries, but I placed a long bead, placed the bit of wood on the board (see pic) pressed it down to squeeze a bit out, and then moved it about 2 mm offset to leave a bit between the wood and the squeeze out.

about 2 hours later (when the photo was taken), that gap was already completely filled and full with air bubbles.

When we left there was an air bubble coming out of the end that had about 4 or 5 mm width already.

Seems to be the right stuff.

Very much like my Soudal 60A glue joints. Looking good to me

Make sure you moisten both sides slightly with a damp rag before applying glue. A little humidity is needed for the curing process. Not dripping wet mind you, just slightly moist. And good clamping, or fasteners. The glue expands and tries to push your joint apart. Having it clamped keeps the parts together against the force of expanding glue. If properly held together by clamps while the glue expands, that causes the glue to expand deep into the pores of the wood rather than only glue the surface of the parts. That aspect makes these joints a lot stronger.

little update.

glued panel 5 yesterday, and definitive difference in the way the glue works. this is much more in line with what is seen in other build threads.

Now for a few questions.

First of all we have a jackplate like this:


and want to install it on panel 8. somewhere in the top third of of (we are doing angled back).
What is the best way to ensure it is sealed?
I didnt want to glue it in in case I need to do some maintenance, so that leaves the screws. But how do I make sure it stays airtight ? are there any sort of gaskets for these cases?

And my next question is the same about the front access panel. how to I make it air tight ? the screws that hold it surely arent enough are they ?

Finally, someone stored our lab 12 gasket on a diagonal position and it snapped in half. do you guys have any EU site to buy 12'' gaskets ? Do I need to get a specific one for the Lab 12 ?

Cheers.

The plate should have a gasket supplied with it.
It should be enough to seal it, but check it with the tube method to make sure.

Access panel:
Pre drill holes (access panel only) so that the screw thread only bites into the flanges, so that the panel is "pulled" into the flanges as you tighten the screws.
Use self adhesive closed cell foam strips 12mm wide and 3mm thick inbetween the flanges and the panel.
Once again, check with the tube method for leaks. When testing for leaks pay particular attention to the corners, as that is most often where leaks are found...