BillFitzmaurice.info

people in the electronic music scene have little exposure to horns.

I guessing you mean today's electronic music scene...
In the early 70's when Mini-Moogs were first introduced I saw a lot of bands with them and a wide variety of system designs were used including horns.
One of the bands I saw a lot those days was Yes
They always had a consistent outstanding sound system, always quickly dialed in.
Regardless of the many sound systems I heard them use the bass was there when needed.
Wakeman's moog had ground shaking LF extension.
A particular memorable performance was outdoor in quad.
Another featured a rotating stage.
I still use their recordings in my reference stack, because it is hard for a home sound system to get the impact and extension I remember from of those shows.

Syd

WiSounds wrote:The issue is that people in the electronic music scene have little exposure to horns. The horns are so clean so low. Reaching an effective 20hz with horns does make up for the lack of above band visceral feel common with direct radiators.

It is the difference between shake your shirt, and grab you by the balls.

Yeah, The first time we fired up the tubas (without tops ) I was like.... maybe we messed up.

Then I realized my legs wanted to give out.

WiSounds wrote:
Yea, I was referring to today's local scene. No one around here has them except me.

I think JohnB and me are the only ones around here now also.

Burst LLC had some turbosound horns, but their out of business now.


I get a lot of flack for using a ten inch sub (pre-tht) and then said people attended a show I did in a proper, large indoors show. Shut them up quick.


and yes, most do like the harmonic distortion their front-loaded ported boxs give. I get a headache real quick at those shows.

Monomer wrote:
and yes, most do like the harmonic distortion their front-loaded ported boxs give. I get a headache real quick at those shows.

There have been many studies that have found highly distorted sources are far more fatiguing at far lower levels than clean sources. They subjectively seem louder at first, but before long they get very irritating.

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:

Monomer wrote:
and yes, most do like the harmonic distortion their front-loaded ported boxs give. I get a headache real quick at those shows.

There have been many studies that have found highly distorted sources are far more fatiguing at far lower levels than clean sources. They subjectively seem louder at first, but before long they get very irritating.

I've been trying to explain that to other sound professionals for years. How hard is it to notice that after 20 minutes at full volume half the crowd leaves the speaker blast zone and seeks out the relative peace of the bar or patio, or just goes home? I think the excessive volume and distortion is a huge part of the reason that our local bar bad scene is now largely dominated by shows where a each band's set is 35-40 minutes with a 30 minute break in between, or more when it's a band change. If you don't give people half an hour to let their ears relax between pummelings they'd just go home. I rarely see anyone except for die-hard fans stick it out for an entire set.

One of my friend's band's has taken it to heart, though - they yell at the sound guy to turn them -down- during sound check. They're still doing the supporting act thing most of the time, and a lot of the time they get a better crowd than whoever happens to be headlining the show. Their secret? Reasonable stage levels, and an understanding that the more comfortable it is for the crowd, the more likely they are to stick around. As an added bonus, this also means that they actually have some dynamic range when they play, which also helps immensely with keeping the crowd engaged.

I've started wearing ear attenuators to every club I go to. I wasnt happy with the intense threshold shift I was experiencing whenever I went out at night, and it actually kind of scared me.

I hadnt thought about the increased ear fatigue of DR vs Horns. Its a new spin on things.

Bill Fitzmaurice wrote:

Monomer wrote:
and yes, most do like the harmonic distortion their front-loaded ported boxs give. I get a headache real quick at those shows.

There have been many studies that have found highly distorted sources are far more fatiguing at far lower levels than clean sources. They subjectively seem louder at first, but before long they get very irritating.

this quote brought a memory of my old yamaha s115's, and, really, pretty much every entry level cab and most of the mid level stuff out there too. At the store you might listen to for 5 minutes and decide it sound "better" than the rest, but then you take it to a show and run it for 4 hours and you can just tell the people have headaches from your "better" speakers.

SeisTres wrote: this quote brought a memory of my old yamaha s115's, and, really, pretty much every entry level cab and most of the mid level stuff out there too. At the store you might listen to for 5 minutes and decide it sound "better" than the rest, but then you take it to a show and run it for 4 hours and you can just tell the people have headaches from your "better" speakers.

Don't think for an instant that manufacturers aren't aware of that. In 1968 acoustic suspension speakers accounted for 90% of the home hi-fi market. When T/S ported cabs came out they were instantly shuttled into newly built consumer sound rooms. Since ported cabs ran from 3 to 6dB louder than acoustic suspension they subjectively sounded 'better'. By 1975 acoustic suspension was dead and buried.
In the electric bass genre too small cabs have decided midbass humps, making them subjectively sound louder than those with relatively flat response. Guess which sells better, based on a ten minute audition at G-C. And guess which sounds like garbage when you play one in a boomy room.

Well, I have to say I had planned on using my Front loaded subs for smaller gigs. (Why I built the 36" Titans.) Now I don't know that I ever want to turn those things on ever again.

I'm using a LR48 cross between the tops and Titans. Muting each is kinda freaky for lack of a better word, because of the thump and feel of the Titans compared to the noise baggage that comes with Dr subs. I have two DR250 kits beside me and can't wait to see what they will bring.

Jamie

I suppose I feel better about things. Just don't want to be disappointed is all. By specs, these t48s should outperform my direct radiators in every way. So far in my build I can tell they are at least going to be far more transportable (not sure why catwalk thick expanded metal covering the whole front face of a 3/4" built cab enclosing a ceramic 18" seemed like a good idea at the time).

WiSounds wrote:I'm about to have the best of both worlds. Who wants to buy my otop212s?

let me guess, your dubhorns along with some crazy Di.ra kickbins, and 6" tops? Am I even warm?

nah man, plasma speakers, dubhorns for 80-20hz, and 25 rotary subs for the all important 2-20hz range.

jcmbowman wrote:
Their secret? Reasonable stage levels, and an understanding that the more comfortable it is for the crowd, the more likely they are to stick around.

Just like one guitarist I knew that would turn up his solid state crate 100 watt half stack to where the even other guitarist complained. Needless to say, since the stage was 3 feet high and the stack would be almost at ear level, there would be just empty floorspace all along the dispersion of his cab

Oh and about the review of the tht's, this immediately came to mind http://www.speakerplans.com/index.php?id=faq12

I guess by the length of the horn, the interaction is right before the otops pick it up.


WTF?! LOL, how could I forgotten about the rotary speakers

sine143 wrote:and 25 rotary subs for the all important 2-20hz range.

SeisTres wrote:WTF?! LOL, how could I forgotten about the rotary speakers

From 30 Hz to rock bottom this concept absolutely amazes. What ever electronica musician has the time and money to bolt 4 (yes, only 4) of these puppies to the end of a 53 foot shipping container would be able to walk on water, eat bullets, and $#!% ice cream....or at least get the audience to do so on command.

If I ever get my grimy paws back in the machine shop, I just might hog one of these things out myself.

$20,000?? $12,900?? I could buy a used Colchester for less than that.