Ballroom sound

[shane2943]

Hey all. Got an update for ya.

First off, thank you for your help Bruce and Seth!! I put your suggestions to good use. I got the towers up on stands now and used the second input on both of them with the gain set to 0. I also set the LF tone control to "ext sub" (more on this below) and the HF to flat. On the board I was able to set the stereo mains out to -5 and played with the EQ to clear things up. Ended up going flat on the lows and mids, and boosting the highs about +10 or so on the laptop input and about +5 on the mic inputs.

Back to the "ext sub" thing, putting the speakers up on stands did gut the low end quite a bit (expected) and I discovered that this place has a B52 Matrix 2000 18" sub they weren't using, so I opted to employ that to recover some of the lost lows. I have that connected to one of the group outputs so it can be adjusted separately and I put the Eurolive top that's trying to fill the rear of the dance floor on the other group output (then turned it way down).

The sub is not in the best place and I want to mess around with placement of it a bit, but I ran out of time and also they didn't have a power cord long enough for it. I intend to go back there possibly this week if I can make the schedule work to mess around with that. I got a long power cord so that will help.

Impressions: MUCH BETTER. To my ears and also to several other folks who commented that it's much cleaner now and the music is easier to hear. Bass is not even across the floor, but that's expected due to the sub placement and the fact that there's only one of them. I am thinking about building at least 2 T30's for them over the winter. But overall, it sounds far better than before, and it only cost a couple of stands and some time. It could be much better still, but going from "bad" to "ok" is a huge step I think!

[Bruce Weldy]

What's coming in on channel 2? It looks like the 80hz high pass is engaged. If that's the music, then that's why you have no bottom end. Put that button in the up position, then the sub will come alive....

Now that I look closer, it looks like the music is in the RCA inputs.....that's a lot of high end being added and the fader is barely cracked open. Might want to turn down the volume at the source. Also, check the EQ settings on the PC or whatever you are using for playback. Those sometimes have some preset EQ you can engage.....probably best to set it to flat. That's a ton of high end .....

[shane2943]

Channel 2 is a wireless mic.

I've instructed all of the volunteer DJs to set their laptop volume at 30% or so, that way the fader can be set higher. That's a line-level input I discovered which explains why one has to turn their laptop volume way down. You're right that it is a lot of high end. However, since we have several DJs who all pretty much play from Spotify and all have their own laptops, I can't really manage the EQ on everyone's machines. So I'm going from the assumption that most or all of those people do not have or use EQ on their laptops, which I think is likely true. So wasn't sure what to do. I'm also not sure why I had to boost the high end so much. The highs sounded pulled back until cranking that high end knob.

Thank you for the continued feedback!! I greatly appreciate it.

[Bruce Weldy]

Channel 2 is a wireless mic.

I've instructed all of the volunteer DJs to set their laptop volume at 30% or so, that way the fader can be set higher. That's a line-level input I discovered which explains why one has to turn their laptop volume way down. You're right that it is a lot of high end. However, since we have several DJs who all pretty much play from Spotify and all have their own laptops, I can't really manage the EQ on everyone's machines. So I'm going from the assumption that most or all of those people do not have or use EQ on their laptops, which I think is likely true. So wasn't sure what to do. I'm also not sure why I had to boost the high end so much. The highs sounded pulled back until cranking that high end knob.

Thank you for the continued feedback!! I greatly appreciate it.

Two things.....

EQ is built into most sound cards and tablets. You can choose an EQ curve. Some of 'em are awful and my get set there because someone was listening through the tiny speakers on the device or with earbuds.

Are you sure that the horns in those boxes aren't blown? Of the top of my head, I think they are crossed around 2.5-3k. That could certainly make you need to push the heck out of the top end even though the mid speaker is only going up to that point.

[shane2943]

Oh I definitely agree on the EQ built into soundcards and such. It'd just be trying to manage that on several people's laptops, especially when most of these folks know very little about sound. These aren't professional DJs, they're just dancers who volunteer to play curated playlists from Spotify.

The horns definitely aren't blown. I'm honestly not sure why there's the need to push the high's up so high. Unless I've done something wrong, it's like the highs are missing a bit when the EQ is set flat.

[shane2943]

I think the next step in this puzzle is getting them a couple of subs to smooth out response across the floor. Originally I was thinking T30's, but now I'm leaning toward T24's for their smallness. Would 2 T24's be enough for this venue? Should they be single or dual loaded do you think? I don't have experience with the T24's so I'm not clear on their output capability. The product page says that 2 T24's are good for audience sizes up to 150 which sounds like that'd be plenty for this space.

What do y'all think?

[Bruce Weldy]

I think the next step in this puzzle is getting them a couple of subs to smooth out response across the floor. Originally I was thinking T30's, but now I'm leaning toward T24's for their smallness. Would 2 T24's be enough for this venue? Should they be single or dual loaded do you think? I don't have experience with the T24's so I'm not clear on their output capability. The product page says that 2 T24's are good for audience sizes up to 150 which sounds like that'd be plenty for this space.

What do y;all think?

A couple of T39s would be better than T24s. Titans go louder and you don't really need the extension of the Tubas for what you're doing. You can build 'em slim for ease of moving 'em around...honestly, T39s with kickback casters are way easier to move than a T24, even if it's on wheels. And they will take the same amount of time to build, just a little more plywood.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

It's like the highs are missing a bit when the EQ is set flat.

CD horns need HF boost. Many power amps even have a CD HF boost circuit built in.

[shane2943]

A couple of T39s would be better than T24s. Titans go louder and you don't really need the extension of the Tubas for what you're doing. You can build 'em slim for ease of moving 'em around...honestly, T39s with kickback casters are way easier to move than a T24, even if it's on wheels. And they will take the same amount of time to build, just a little more plywood.

Hmm...

They do often play music that digs deep. Quite a bit of new pop and hiphop has pretty deep bass, as well as trap and such which all get played along with a mixture of other stuff like blues, disco, and other older stuff. Do the T39s dig deep enough for that?

Here's a good example of a song with deep bass that would get played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0o3vT49QVw

In west coast swing, you can dance to nearly anything!

[shane2943]

CD horns need HF boost. Many power amps even have a CD HF boost circuit built in.

Ah, that answers that! Thanks Bill!

[Seth]

...Do the T39s dig deep enough..?

Here's a good example of a song with deep bass that would get played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V0o3vT49QVw

There was nothing below T39 capabilities in that song.

[Rich4349]

Granted, all of the above are bigger issues that needed to be addressed first, but would this situation benefit from use of an RTA? (Real time analyzer)

[shane2943]

There was nothing below T39 capabilities in that song.

Good to know. Thank you sir!

[shane2943]

Just got the Lab 12 drivers in for the T39's I'll build for the space. Excited to get started on them! Gotta finish the current project (curved SLA center) first though. One thing at a time lol

[shane2943]

More advice wanted.

This ballroom space has a main dance floor which I've posted about previously, and it also has a small ballroom that can be divided into two separate rooms with a curtain. The capacity of each small ballroom half is probably around 30 people if they're all squished in there. Average is closer to 20 people. The small ballroom is separated from the main space by large windows. The doorways into the small ballroom have curtains on them (no doors). The curtains don't do much to prevent sound leakage so the sound situation in there is pretty bad. To make it worse, each small ballroom half has its own bluetooth speaker used for classes and those speakers just sit on the floor . Often times, there are 3 separate classes going on at the same time: one in the main ballroom, and two in the small ballroom with the curtain pulled closed to divide the space. Since the speakers for each small ballroom space are on the floor, they have to be cranked up in order to be heard by the classes (and, unsurprisingly, they're still hard to hear). This causes TONS of bleed through the large curtain, causing the dance instructors on either side to have to shout in order to be heard over the music in the other space. Yuck, I know.

I've been trying to brainstorm how to at least improve the music situation in there so there is less bleed through, and the music doesn't have to be as loud to be heard. The best I've come up with is to fly a couple of Jacks (either 110L or 112L) with the melded arrays in the front corners of each of the small ballroom spaces. The Jacks would be aimed away from the adjacent space which will hopefully cut down a little of the bleed through, and since they'd be flown, not as much volume should be needed.

It's not ideal at all, but just like the main ballroom, I can say that the owners of the space are not going to invest money into replacing the curtain with an acoustic accordion wall, nor are they going to pay to treat the ceiling/walls to help with reflections. But I want to do something because, as someone who takes dance classes that are almost always in one of the small ballroom spaces, it's nearly unbearable.

Here's some pitchers of the small ballroom space with the dividing curtain open. I've put green squares/arrows where I'm picturing the Jacks to go. The red squares are the current speakers in the space.

Thanks in advance for any advice!