Yet another newbie, sorry guys

[LioninSpace]

@Bill:

It's not unusual for low frequencies to be louder on the other side of a wall than in the room, because the cancellations that are present in the room are not present on the other side.

Oh no please. That would be the worse case senario. If the Lf-sound turns out louder outside than on the dancefloor, the room becomes unusable. Please tell me that there are ways to avoid that.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Solid concrete walls. The only thing that stops long wavelength low frequency transmission is mass, a lot of it.

[Seth]

Please tell me that there are ways to avoid that.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Verify the cab/cable polarities are in synch, find the best compromise of speaker placement, EQ, and see what the situation actually is.

In favor of your goal, lots of bodies in the room can help.

[Bruce Weldy]

Please tell me that there are ways to avoid that.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. Verify the cabs polarity, find the best compromise of speaker placement, EQ, and see what the situation actually is.

In favor of your goal, lots of bodies in the room can help.

And you can always raise the high pass on the subs some. The lower the frequency, the more annoying to the neighbors. I helped out a local venue with their neighbor complaints by raising their high pass to 50hz. Still plenty of bass in the room for dancing, but the annoyance factor outside went down so that the complaints went away. There's always trade-offs.

[Seth]

And you can always raise the high pass on the subs some. The lower the frequency, the more annoying to the neighbors. I helped out a local venue with their neighbor complaints by raising their high pass to 50hz. Still plenty of bass in the room for dancing, but the annoyance factor outside went down so that the complaints went away. There's always trade-offs.

Absolutely a good point. He doesn't have a high pass in his EQ, but simply pulling EQ sliders below 50Hz all the way down would provide a similar effect.

Also, André, when you're testing the sub locations, unplug the tops. It appears your EQ has an adjustable lowpass filter for the subs, but doesn't offer a high pass filter for the tops. So, you'll also want to verify that the subs and tops create constructive summation. Once you find workable sub locations, plug the tops back in and note any changes in bass response throughout the room. Ultimately, you want to have the ability to put a high pass filter on the tops. What are you using for tops and to power them?

[LioninSpace]

Hey guys,

damn the time differnce. Before I even can show what I have promised yesterday, there are more things to do

Here is how the settings look on the important part of the EQ with and without the help of a flash.

As you can see here, I did drop the frequencies below 50 Hz for the tops, even when the main tops have 2 12" BRs so they have at least some capablilty for LF. The second Tops are as of now just my home chinema Fronts (Monitor Audio Silver 500, running on a much reduced amplification to keep them safe. They are just used to help fill the room and reduce the directionallity from just one pair of speakers). My Yorkvilles are still in the move. Those also have a 12" and will hang from the celing while the main Tops are standing on the podium in the DJ booth.

Both pairs are powered by E800 T-amps: https://www.thomann.de/de/the_tamp_e800.htm (so one each)

Hope to get some help this weekend to get started on speaker placement, but it might take longer as I am supposed to entertain a guest from Edingbough this weekend, who has no interest into that sort of thing at all.
To make it worse, I am away for Berlin next weekend.

Maybe you already see that I have messed the EQ settings up, who knows? I never owned a 19" rack or a DJ controller before. Back in the days, I used two HiFi CD players, a mixer and two HiFi Amplifiers to DJ. Well, that is 30 years ago. Revisiting this now, I am trying to get a bit more professional about it, but there is a learning curve and lots of climbing to do to get where I want to be.

Thanks for all your input. Really appreciate it!

André

[Grant Bunter]

Read the FBQ6200 user manual Andre!

From it I got this: whatever you do on the front side of the FBQ6200 also does the same thing to the subwoofer output.
Having said that 40-50Hz isn't a bad place to start dropping down EQ.

There's a slightly floored thinking on your behalf in that the tops are helping the subs with LF.
They may not be, in fact, they may be hurting the subs output, because you should never use different designs in the same bandpass, ie, subs and tops.
That can lead to frequency cancellation do to differing phase response amongst other things.
In a arguably better world, you would feed the sub from source that lets you set it parameters, and the tops separately

What's the sub output filter dial set too?
How far are the subs away from the nearest wall?

[Seth]

And you can always raise the high pass on the subs some. The lower the frequency, the more annoying to the neighbors. I helped out a local venue with their neighbor complaints by raising their high pass to 50hz. Still plenty of bass in the room for dancing, but the annoyance factor outside went down so that the complaints went away. There's always trade-offs.

Absolutely a good point. He doesn't have a high pass in his EQ.

I was wrong. There does appear to be a high pass function.

[Grant Bunter]

I was wrong. There does appear to be a high pass function.

Uh huh, Behringer (amongst others) want to mess things up by calling it low cut...

[Bruce Weldy]

I was wrong. There does appear to be a high pass function.

Uh huh, Behringer (amongst others) want to mess things up by calling it low cut...

In their defense (something I would rarely say regarding Behringer), almost all of the old analog boards had a low cut feature on the individual channels....and still do. I would say that the advent of the digital mixers is when they began calling it high pass. Of course, it's always been called high pass on the business end of the PA.

[LioninSpace]

Hey guys!

Lots going on and also lots of loose ends in the discussion to tidy up already. And that's before I can even begin to experiment with speaker placement. Have to see if I can manage to get to at least some of those points now:

@Grant: As far as I remember, all I have is the quick guide. Same thing that I can download at Behringer.com. Can't find a complete manual there.
In the quick guide I can't see that it says that the EQ settings affect sub and general range alike. Can you point in to where it says that?

As far as I was concerned, the sub has its seperate output with its seperate, quite limited controls (dial 24 and bottom 25). The output level vor the sub is nob 24 and it is set to something like -11 dB. I took the picture so that you can see the setting.

As for not being able to control the tops seperately, what is the function of high cut and low cut dials No 6 and 7 if not to determine what part of the incoming signal gets to reach the Ultra Graph channels 1 and 2 and therefore the power amps and ultimately the Top speakers?

It does say for the Low Cut dial: "The high-pass filter (18 dB/oct.) covers the range between 10 and 400 Hz". I should be able to use it to determine how much of the low frequency are reaching the Tops. If I set it to 400Hz, there should be not a lot low end coming to them at all. That should leave the low end to the sub out only. Depending on what I put dial 24, the cut off for the sub.

Should that not allow me to separate what freq is to reach to Tops and what is to go to the Subs?

This is really basic and I thought I had this, but if I don't please tell me.

More later... need to get some work done.

André

[LioninSpace]

Uff, now thing are over lapping while I did write my part.

As far as I am concered it doesn't matter much to me if they call it low cut or high pass.... the result is still the same: frequencies below will be reduced, those above pass by unaltered. I do understand that one description might be more precise than the other, but the main thing is that one can understand what it does, right?

André

[Grant Bunter]

Don't get to frustrated.
There's a bunch of us banging stuff at you and your just trying to get your head around stuff.
We're just trying to help, based on experience. Please forgive us.

manual:
Go to https://www.behringer.com/downloads.html scroll down to your model number in a drop down box somewhere in the middle, click it and all documents related to that model number will come up. You want the manual, not the quick start guide, which you have already.

That's where it says (under the sub out heading) whatever you do to will also affect sub out. So, eg if you set low cut/high pass to 400Hz, then you get no sub output.
Why is it there like that? Well, for example let's say you were using the unit after crossover system outputs. You might have a mid/high send for example, on one unit, where you want to make sure that the mid/highs aren't trying to reproduce what should be in the subs.
So use the low cut.

But you're situation is different. You don't have a crossover, you're trying to use the controls on the unit to try and make it act like a crossover, but it's not, or, if it is, it has limitations.
One way you could get more sub control if you use a mixer, is to feed the subs via an auxilliary feed.

I'm wondering if we should just give you some time to try all the stuff suggested so far. You get back to us when you're ready, tell us your findings, we move on from there...

[LioninSpace]

Hi Grant,

I wonder if I have a case of geo-blocking here. This is what I can see at the behringer website:

so just pictures and the two versions of the quick guide. No full manual.

So I guess I do need to start looking for a cross-over at well.... never ending. Reason is that your other suggestion doesn't really work. At least I can't see it:

The DJ-controller (pioneer DDJ-RX) has a booth out but the Ultragraph EQ has only a sub out, no sub in. I need to use a main channel to run the sub through. Not ideal as part of the idea of the EQ is to smooth the two different tops together to one coherent sound and to ring out the room. I also feel that a 31 fader EQ is wasted if one just uses a subwoofer LF signal with it. I rather look out of a decent cross-over deal. Damn, I thought to have hit two birds with one stone there, but it never seem to work out that way.

Thanks!
André

[LioninSpace]

One more thing: One needs to be careful as they use at least the quick guide for three different models. The situation can be differ from model to model and it isn't always clear what exactly they refer to.
Just food for thought
André