BillFitzmaurice.info

I have to express some disagreement with dswpro's post.

dswpro wrote: the Presonus desks are not expandable, neither is the x32.

That depends on how you define expandable. You can link two 16.4.2 desks to make a 32 channel desk, and I believe you can link two 24.4.2 desks to get 48 channels. You do give up the firewire connection to do this. The X32 can use stageboxes and has recallable gain, and comes with 32 mic pres... which means you don't need to expand to get in the same ball game as the O1V line, with a full complement of (rather expensive) 8 channel ADAT mic pres.

Also, both the presonus and the X32 have far more outputs and processing than the O1V will ever think about.

I won't use the Presonus desks for live work since they do not offer delays on outputs. Try adding 10-15 ms delay on your mains and 7-10 ms delay on your monitors ( but not on in-ears ) You will increase your gain before feedback.

You are correct that it reduces GBF, if musicians will tolerate it. In my experience most won't... and if you need to do this kind of trickery to get decent GBF in monitors, you should reexamine your mic choice and placement, as well as your monitor EQ. Monitors don't have to be HiFi, but they can be if you have the right gear.

The X32 has a steep learning curve, particularly in routing inputs to outputs.

Not nearly as steep as the GLD-80. It's quite workable.

The Yamaha desks are rock solid reliable. Ask any touring company. The input and output patching are easy to understand and flexible.

Yamaha digital desks have been around for a while. While longevity and reliability are certainly correlated, the lack of longevity does not equal lack of reliability. As for I/O patching, yes, it's fairly decent.

The digital latency is minimal. I haven't seen a SAC with less.

Weren't you just touting adding latency to everything but IEMs? Truthfully, adding a small amount latency to IEMs sometimes is the solution to the phase problems introduced by too much latency anyway. Anyway, the latency of all these systems is comparable (1-5ms, usually).

I write software for a living. I don't want Windows, IOS, or any operating system locking up between me and my audio during a performance, so any product which depends on a commonly infected operating system is out of serious consideration for me.

From the department of Credit where it is due... SAC is an excellently coded product, that, when built and set up according to the developer's specifications for both hardware and OS, is just as stable as any desk. In four years, my SAC system has never crashed during a gig. In fact, my first SAC PC (which I built on the cheap and not to developer spec) had a poorly attached processor fan which shook loose at some point during its life (probably during transport). It kept on passing audio (with a few low level pops here and there) through at least two weeks of use before I tracked the problem down to the processor fan. I rebuilt it with reccomended components and it's been perfectly stable ever since. And, by perfectly stable, I mean that I haul it in a non-shock-mount rack on a yard trailer to gigs, and it works when it gets there. I've had Soundcraft, Allen&Heath, Presonus, and Yamaha all crash during gigs or setup for gigs.

The 01v does not have recallable pre-amp gains but you are probably going to plug the same sources into the same channels all the time anyway.

In a band environment, yes. In a pro audio rental environment (which I believe OP was considering as well), not so much.

Every digital console comes with a learning curve. Whatever you choose, do yourself a favor and set the console up with a snake out front at least once for a rehearsal. If you can find a local operator familiar with the board, get some setup help. Dial in your monitors and your mains. Then save your settings and run your gigs from stage for your shows. If all goes well you should have to do very few adjustments from gig to gig, and perhaps turn up a fader during a solo or two from song to song.

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Here's an argument for the newer products which have tablet access if I've ever seen one...

Sounds like ya'll are getting way past the discussion of what a weekend warrior wants/needs/can afford.

I'm sure if the OP decides to jump in whole hog running sound - he'll make the appropriate moves concerning equipment.

As an old fart who has a band and runs sound on a part-time basis.....I'm happy with what I've got. I won't be adding an extra board or jumping up to a $25000 Yamaha.

From Jools posts, I get the feeling that he's in the same boat that I am. Pushing 60, wants to keep playing and dabbling in sound.

The requirements for that are way different than making a living at this. There are always options - but what works in a FOH setting isn't necessarily what works best when running everything off the stage.

We all need to examine what we want to accomplish and find the right tool for the job. If the job changes - change the tool.

Jools, I applaud you.

You are spot on Bruce.

Instead of settling for a late middle age where my greatest excitement would be waiting for a copy of "Rose Growers Monthly" to drop through the door or getting a brand new pair of carpet slippers, I'm still going to keep banging out hard rock covers. The band I play in is well respected and we're pretty good at what we do, but we have no illusions that we're ever going to play anywhere but the local pub circuit.

I just need a PA to cover the sort of crowd we get (maximum of 250) at the sort of gig where you would usually have something like an Allen and Heath Mixwizard like our previous singer had, or the Yamaha desk that I have, feeding a pair (or multiples) of ubiqiutous Mackie SRM450's.

Since our last singers departure has forced a complete PA refresh I could, of course, have just gone out and bought a new desk that's smaller and lighter than my current Yamaha MG2414FX and bought a couple of Mackies or QSC K12's. However, the rave reviews that BFM cabs get have convinced me that a pair of Jack 12 Lites will be a significant improvement on most of the commercial offerings, so even though I've never heard a BFM cab 'in the flesh' I'm prepared to take the plunge. Similarly, since I've also got the funds at the moment, why not consider a small digital mixer? The ability to save settings for each venue and/or band, the additional 'per channel' features such as compression, gating, limiting, FX and global GEQ on all the outputs would save a bunch of outboard - notwithstanding the promised ability to go and do a virtual soundcheck out front with an iPad.

Since I'm about to take early retirement, it struck me that I'm going to have more time on my hands than my band mates (even taking my care duties into account), so why not go out and run sound for a couple of friends bands as well - nothing professional, just to cover my expenses, buy a few beers and contribute a little to maintenance/upgrades. I know a few of my friends who could use this type of thing. I could easily see me getting involved in building the small herd of BFM cabs such as many people here seem to do having dipped their toe into BFM waters.

If things did go that way, a few years ago I also provided and ran the PA for a small festival of about 2-3000 people, and with a small herd I could envision doing this type of thing again since I still have the contacts.

If things got even bigger than that, then I would use nepotism. My brother-in-law is a professional sound engineer in the TV and Film industry. Although he has now wound up his involvement, at the time I did the festival he part owned a London based audio company called F.A.B (Fat Audio Bastards) who used to rent out playback systems and do post production for music videos. This was serious stuff for some of the major acts around, and I do mean major people like U2, AC/DC that sort of thing - so I was able to borrow a JBL touring rig and a big analogue Allen and Heath desk from him for nothing. Even though he's gone back to freelancing, but he still has his contacts as well - just in case I ever needed some real big firepower.

But, I'm not a fantasist...I'm just about to retire, so I could do with an absorbing interest but I don't want another full time job...all I really want to do is provide my own bands needs and dabble at best. Having a mixer with a few more horsepower than I actually need right now, such as the Presonus or X32, wouldn't do any harm - so I am tending towards those now as a result of this thread

Tom Smit wrote:Jools, I applaud you.

Thanks Tom

Doesn't time fly.....after chewing the fat on this decision for a long time, I think my mind is made up.

I was having a serious look at the Presonus 16.4.2 because it seemed quite intuitive for a long time analogue user and the ability to record 16 channels through firewire, remote iPad control, virtual soundchecks etc...all looked good. I held off because by the time I was ready to pull the trigger, the 16.4.2 AI was within days of release and my thinking was "am I about to spend out on something that is instantly going to become a legacy product...maybe wait for the AI to start shipping". Of course the decision was taken out of my hands then, because the AI came in at £1600 rather than the end of line deals on the 16.4.2 ordinaire of around £1200. I fondly imagined that there would still be some dealer stock of the older model still floating about, but no...within just a day or so the AI was all that is listing on the online stores.

So...

Long story short....At the same time I was waiting to see when the AI would ship, I was also keeping my eye on the X32 Rack to see when that started shipping, and now that is easily available at around £1200. The X32 Rack version strikes me as being like a Mackie 1608 in that it is best controlled from an iPad, but for just a couple of hundred pounds more you get double the channel count, better connectivity, better expandibility, better recording options, more flexible routing and so on and so on...so I think this is what I'm going for.

I'm also hoping that I will be able to build it into a road case that will be big enough to house the mixer, any outboard equipment I'll still need (DEQ/DCX etc), and by making sure that the rack is tall enough to get enough cooling space between power amps and more delicate stuff I'll be able to prewire everything in the rack. My ideal would be to just roll the rack into place, lay out a 12 channel snake to stage rear, an 8 channel snake to stage front, run speakon cables to mains and monitors and get up and running in about 15 minutes.

Still a tiny bit of umming and erring to do, and I'll probably wait until my next salary check comes in, but my goal is to have all my BFM cabs finished, new mixer etc all ready to go by March 1st.

Jools4001 wrote: I'm also hoping that I will be able to build it into a road case that will be big enough to house the mixer, any outboard equipment I'll still need (DEQ/DCX etc), and by making sure that the rack is tall enough to get enough cooling space between power amps and more delicate stuff I'll be able to prewire everything in the rack.

I'm with you all the way on this except for putting the board in the same case. Here's some reasons why:

1. Should there ever be a time when you want to run sound from out front - either your band or someone else - the board needs to be separate.

2. If you want to set up in your house and record your band - do you really want to drag in a huge rack, instead of just the board?

3. Anything wider than a standard rackmount width will mean building a huge case that will be hard for a single person to move.


By having a separate case for my board, I'm able to load my rack and board in and out of the trailer, into venues, etc. by myself.

If you are running sound off the stage, just set the board on top. The only extra wiring you'll have is to run the main out and the monitors to your rack panel. I have three short cables for this made out of install wire that are zip-tied together so I don't have to go hunting.

Build a rack panel like this:




Not a great picture, but you get the idea. (Yeah, it looks just like the other two I've built. This one I'm just finishing for a band of young kids who are putting together their first real PA).

I can hook up my system in minutes. Plug in the xlrs, then the speakons, then the power (blue) connector.

Having your board separate opens up way more possibilities then having it built in. Just build you a good case for it.

Bruce Weldy wrote:I'm with you all the way on this except for putting the board in the same case.

The X32 rack is just that, a 4U rack. You need an iPad to mix and control it (though it does have token controls on the front panel), so there is no need for it to move and you don't have any snake problem.

Chris_Allen wrote:

Bruce Weldy wrote:I'm with you all the way on this except for putting the board in the same case.

The X32 rack is just that, a 4U rack. You need an iPad to mix and control it (though it does have token controls on the front panel), so there is no need for it to move and you don't have any snake problem.

Wow....sorry, I thought he was talking about the X32 mixer. I didn't realize they had put it in a rack. Pretty cool....but, I'm still afraid of the iPad as my only mixer surface. I use one with my presonus, but I don't like the idea of having my whole show at the mercy of a third party device.

Presonus had a problem with the latest iPad update a few months back - took a coiuple of weeks to get it ironed out. Didn't cost you a show, but it sure screwed some things up. Even if it was totally dead, at least you could still use the mixer.

Oh well......sorry about the irrelevant post.....

I don't think the post was irrelevant as the points were valid, just unrequired! I think an RJ45 control surface would be a nice thing to compliment though you could probably do something similar with a midi surface.

You can plug the X32 Compact or Mixer into the rack to have a desk where you like.

I'm with Jools though, really like the idea of a rack. The benefits of the iPad control is walking round the venue to listen. I've played in so many venues that have unsuitable places for the band and no place at all for FOH. You will never beat a physical control surface for speed of response.

Yes, Chris is right, it's the rack mount version that interests me, mostly because I saw one of the other racks that Bruce built and that got the mind ticking over on it...so both valuable inputs.

This is the little beast



And this is it's back panel...



So it has 16 XLR inputs plus a further 6 auxilliary inputs (not the same things as aux sends or returns apparently), so my idea was to leave a couple of snakes plugged in to the inputs and just coiled up in the rack, run those to stage rear for drum mics and guitar DI and stage front for vocals, my bass DI and a couple of audience mics (for live gig recording and if we ever go IEM). All the outputs to any outboard or power amps would be confined within the rack so that would just leave a break out panel with speakons an RTA mic input and a powercon...

I was dubious about relying entirely on an iPad (as you would have to do with a Mackie) but with this unit you can run control software and or recording software from a PC connected to the ethernet or wireless (recording is via USB rather than the increasingly difficult to find firewire). So my idea was to take both a laptop and iPad (I already have both), wheel it in, laptop on top of the rack, call up a preset mix from the laptop (should be able to build a library of the venues we play pretty quickly), then use a 16 track recording of the band to do a rough mix wandering about with the iPad. When the show starts, the laptop can just sit there recording 16 tracks to it's solid state drive with the iPad on one of those mic stand clips in front of me for any tweaks or emergencies. So if the iPad goes down I can mix from the laptop, if the laptop goes down at a real pinch I can mix from the front panel

Ooops...hadn't noticed the time...better get loaded for tonights rehearsal where we're going to attempt to punch the breaks and fills for Deep Purple's HIghway Star into our drummer

Edit: Forgot to add that this is a full 32 channel mixer, it does everything that the big X32 does except that it uses either a laptop or iPad instead of a control surface. If you want to expand the number of inputs beyond the 'local' inputs you can get a 16 way digital snake (for another £600 or so) and plug it into the AES50 sockets.

Jools4001 wrote: Ooops...hadn't noticed the time...better get loaded for tonights rehearsal where we're going to attempt to punch the breaks and fills for Deep Purple's HIghway Star into our drummer

Hope you weren't wailing into the poor guy...

I know that this is not a digital rig, but it's my audio capture setup for live gigs. I steal audio through the insert jacks on my Mackie and mix it down separately (with headphones) during the show. The rack is why I'm posting this: SKB shock rack. Plenty of room for cooling and it's vaportight when closed. Pricey though. Luckily I found it used, so it didn't hurt so bad.

http://www.skbshockrackcases.com/skb-3skb-r916u24.htm

Jools4001 wrote:we're going to attempt to punch the breaks and fills for Deep Purple's HIghway Star into our drummer

One of my favorite Deep Purple songs.

You must be old....

Grant Bunter wrote:Hope you weren't wailing into the poor guy...

Ha Ha....no, but there's this one bit that he's not getting at the moment and it's frustrating because, from a bass players perspective, the bit he's getting wrong doesn't seem too complex or difficult to do right.