Listening in the band

[Scott Brochu]

Harley, I'll be right over.

Does he other things going on in his life right now?
Is he stress free at practices and gigs? Like Bill said. It's got to be fun.
Is it fun for him anymore? Maybe owning the band is getting tiring to him.

He's got to again, find his internal clock that he has created and mastered all his life.
Maybe some where down the line he lost touch with the rest of the band (especially the bass) when he picked up singing.

On a side note does the band (especially you and the drummer) hang out together besides practices/gigs? Do you guys go watch other bands go to local watering hole, etc...?

Just my .02

[wounded horse]

On a side note does the band (especially you and the drummer) hang out together besides practices/gigs? Do you guys go watch other bands go to local watering hole, etc...?

This is interesting. I tried that route but no go. It's a useful way of upping your game. If the band you go to see are no good you can see ways to improve on that. If, OTOH, they're smoking, you can always find something to take away and use.

I built 2 T39s and 2 otop12s and bought a DCX2496 to up the game soundwise but there is no interest in learning how to deploy it. So I guess I'm out. Sometimes you just have to cash your chips.

[Harley]

Talk to him in a positive way, compliment him on his voice and for him to be an overall musician to practice on drumming sit down with him talk to him.

Been there, done that...that's when I found out he doesn't listen to the bass nor intend to.

One thing you could do too is to arrange a practice, play a song with him and the whole band Record with him singing the song and then the same song without vocals and play back so he could see the difference. He will be shocked.

We've done this many times at practice ( other than recording ) and improved it. However on the night, at the gig - it's unpredictable once more.

[Harley]

Thanks for the replies and discussion and keep it coming.

I still think the band is worth keeping on trying to fix this problem. The drummer is an Ok enough guy as well but like any human, has his stubborn points too. I must certainly be difficult to get on with because I am so critical about sound and musical performance and I let everyone know it when there's really no excuse.

On a side note does the band (especially you and the drummer) hang out together besides practices/gigs? Do you guys go watch other bands go to local watering hole, etc...

We don't watch other bands together and we don't hang out. We do get on quite well though, better than in most other bands I have been in.

... had a helluva time keeping time unless the vocals jived right up with the rhythm. I feel his pain a little. ...

Yes I feel his pain too, believe me, when he says he is 'concentrating on a whole lot of other stuff' ( most likely the other vocals for pitch ) but the sticky point with me was when he said he never listens to the bass, nor does he intend to and the problem seems to be getting worse.

Try listening to his vocals to give you an indication of when and why he is drifting (timing and emotion throw me off). Also a recording of the problem can be helpful in pointing it out. If he is unwilling to even attempt to remedy the situation than it may be time to move on.

He has asked me if there are times he specifically does it, yes there were and I pointed it out to him. He's tried to fix it but over time there's been little progress if any. Cruizin' is a classic example when there is two part harmony and there's a high part he sings at volume at the beginning of the lines - complete screw up at times.

I will get the sound guy to record us and then have a one-on-one with he drummer with the result I think.

If I'm reading the OP right, this sounds like the biggest problem..........That and not really caring.

He does care - strangely enough, but it's more the vocals and less the rhythm section' Here's what the fill-in bassists said
"I thought his drumming is ok but it takes a back seat to his vocals.The singing can bring some hesitation into his timing.
On some songs the beat pattern could of been better suited but because he was singing had been simplfied (UB40 numbers come to mind).
On the plus side, he's quite versatile, doesn't overplay, communicates and hits all stops."

I have to agree on all points, especially the "plus side" comments. However the "drumming taking a back seat to the vocals" urks me.

[wallywally]

Drop the songs that he has the most problems with. In my band all members have total veto power over song selections.

[Bruce Weldy]

As a guitarist, I must say that I'm amazed that anyone can play bass or drums and sing at the same time.....staying on a beat (every beat) and trying to sing with feeling off the beat is tough.

And please mark this down as the first and last time I compliment bassists or drummers.

Must be off my meds.....

[Grant Bunter]

I guess everyone is different...
I sing back up harmonies and one song. In any given song I won't do the harmonies if it messes with my timing. I find this is often an initial thing, as in a new song in the playlist. Play that song a few times and iron out the wrinkles on the kit, and the harmonies start to happen naturally without interfering with timing.
I always listen to my bass player(s), but I don't concentrate on it as such, it's more a subliminal "work with that" type thingy. Even though what he says is he doesn't and won't listen to bass, maybe it's a subliminal thing for him too, otherwise you would find his tempo all over the place most of the time.
Now days I'm the one in our band who is most critical about sound and performance, which is kinda weird since I always figured myself to be more lighting oriented.

+1 on the veto, any of us can veto a song, no arguments.

So, on to the problems:
Harley, when you say your drummer speeds up, how much?
I assume it's more than 1 or 2 BPM or it would hardly be noticeable.
Is it the adrenaline kicking in and getting excited perhaps?
My drum teacher years ago set me up with a few little sayings, one is perfect for this scenario:
"Be exciting, not excited", start saying it to him.
Does he use a mike on a stand or a headset? I started using a headset (SM10a) years ago and it suddenly seemed to give me the freedom to look around while playing and singing and it all became more natural, perhaps that's a way to go?

Two other options...
One is to take the guy off drums and put him front stage and get another drummer.
Or if it's making you lose sleep at night that it's gnawing away at you that much, either decide to change how you're reacting to it, or, as others have said, consider leaving...

[Bruce Weldy]

Two other options...
One is to take the guy off drums and put him front stage and get another drummer.
Or if it's making you lose sleep at night that it's gnawing away at you that much, either decide to change how you're reacting to it, or, as others have said, consider leaving...

Or, a little training.....

http://www.pet-super-store.com/html/Spo ... ainer.html


Oh, BTW....back to normal now...

[James R]

Put him as vocals only and hire a drummer

[Grant Bunter]

Oh, BTW....back to normal now...

Amazing what 1 little tablet and 20 minutes will do huh Bruce
Just joshin...

[Bruce Weldy]

Oh, BTW....back to normal now...

Amazing what 1 little tablet and 20 minutes will do huh Bruce
Just joshin...

Pretty much a cigar and a couple of Dos Equis gets it done for me.

[Harley]

And please mark this down as the first and last time I compliment bassists or drummers..... Must be off my meds.....

Oh, BTW....back to normal now...

Typical guitarist - up one minute, down the next

Harley, when you say your drummer speeds up, how much? I assume it's more than 1 or 2 BPM or it would hardly be noticeable.

Correct it ebbs and flows actually and it's the slowing down that really frightens me after he's sped up.

Is it the adrenaline kicking in and getting excited perhaps?

iN some songs where he reaches high notes and/or comes out strong in volume

Does he use a mike on a stand or a headset? I started using a headset (SM10a) years ago and it suddenly seemed to give me the freedom to look around while playing and singing and it all became more natural, perhaps that's a way to go?

Mic on stand, in ears monitor BUT good idea about mic headset - never thought of that

One is to take the guy off drums and put him front stage and get another drummer.

Possible but another mouth to feed on a limited fee which is lousy at present anyhow ( avge $180 each per 4 hr gig )

Or if it's making you lose sleep at night that it's gnawing away at you that much, either decide to change how you're reacting to it, or, as others have said, consider leaving...

There's the catch 22. I don't quit easy and I try all sorts of ways to try and fix things before I give up. Against that I'm a perfectionist when it comes to the rhythm section, so it's hard to try not to react to it - especially when the keyboardist and also the guitarist notice it too.

Hence my trying to see if there is any way I hadn't thought of to try and solve it and keep the band together as is. Some good ideas coming through which encourages me.

[Gregory East]

I suppose a click track is out of the question.

[Rick Lee]

As a drummer, if you're not locked in with the bassist it's not music, it's just a headache. Singing lead and playing drums at the same time is easy when the groove is locked in. As a lead singer if you don't know where the groove is you lose out on one of the best tools you have to create excitement in the song- being able to sing around the groove.

I started using a headset (SM10a) years ago and it suddenly seemed to give me the freedom to look around while playing and singing and it all became more natural, perhaps that's a way to go?

I agree with all your points but especially this one. When you don't have to concentrate on singing into the mic it's definitely easier to "move" with the groove.

I've never tried them but I think there are metronomes out there that has tactile output. Also, when I'm sightreading a gig the Boss DB-30 is a great visual metronome.

I don't know what else to tell you- I love the feeling of being locked into a groove together; if I had to play with a bassist that couldn't groove it would take a lot of money to keep me to stay. If the bassist is strong it doesn't really matter how off the keys or guitar(s) are.

[Scott Brochu]

Yes. Definitely pull out a head set from your trick bag on fixing the problem. I used both (when I was in my band) and prefer the head set, it gives the mobility to be in the zone/groove.
Do you guys have bad meetings? If the other members are concerned about his tempo change like you are. Than a serious meeting is in order.
When is your next gig? Anytime for you guys to sit down before? and not the day of.

Good luck, I know first hand what you are going through. It isn't fun.