2 x T30 Slim Build Log

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AntonZ
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#136 Post by AntonZ »

Grant Bunter wrote:All your holes between each piezo seem to be filled in...
I've got just the solution for that :twisted:
Image


I think I have said it in the past, but doesn't hurt to say it again: I like the routed logo. A decently routed logo makes a cab look so much better. Looking forward to see it painted on the finished cab.

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#137 Post by escapemcp »

Grant Bunter wrote:I'd seen it enough times, that, by the time I was building my DR250's, a screw went in every hole in the array. All your holes between each piezo seem to be filled in...
Yeah, and you probably haven't therefore noticed that I have 14 tweeters in my array, rather than the standard 12... the holes are on the garage floor somewhere!! I think the lack of holes and the 14 tweeters may be somehow related (probably thanks to a jig measuring cockup!) :lol:

I will keep an eye on them and if they need some extra screws, I'll be ready with Anton's "sarcastic drill" solution. :loler: :loler: Nice

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#138 Post by escapemcp »

Got to make it quick tonight... it's late already and I'm tired.

Not much to report really, getting final cab close to completion. Just the handles to do really. I mentioned in another thread (Timp's build log - really? :lol: ), that the bottom front handle (right in the mouth) has a massive void, so it flexes like hell as soon as you try picking up the sub. I really don't think I can trust it, so it's on to the drawing board to figure out a way to fix it. I think the best option may be just to cut it out and PL a bit of BB in. Other options include (but are not limited to) a piece of metal sunk into a routed channel (good, as you shouldn't then see it), or use the half round piece to reinforce (it would mean the half round went across the whole width of the sub though :( ). Does anyone have any other ideas?

The moral of all this messing about: USE BB!!

So today as neighbours were out, I was going to get all 4 subs stacked and in V-plate formation. I managed this after finishing off the 4th cab with handle cut out (see above) and corners. This is what the stack, MY stack now looks like :hyper: :hyper:
ImageImage

The 2nd pic is for AntonZ, so he can see the logos :) The cabs are a little dusty, which makes them look a bit shit, but they will all be getting a good wash once I am done.

As for powering them, they are running 2 per side off iNuke 3000DSP #1. I use a 4 core (to save on loads of wires) from my patch panel in my amp rack into a stage box from Audiospares. They are cheapest Neutrik place I have found in the UK, AND their postage is reasonable for small bits, they don't charge like £8 per order if you are only ordering a few NL4's. <-- Hope that helps someone :) Anyway, the stagebox has 2 outs, which I then use to wire in my subs. A little like this:
Image

It means I can soon shorten all my Speaker cables to almost the exact length and save a little on cable, as well as gaining a little power due to reduced cable losses AND gain a bit of damping factor for my speakers. I run 2.5mm² core cable anyway, so the difference is minimal, but it'll be almost a WHOLE PERCENT on the power :hyper: using the ol' R=l/kA formula where:
R is resistance in Ω
l is cable length in m
k is specific conductivity (kappa) = 56 for copper
A is the cross section of line mm²

I think the damping factor will improve by a similar amount as DF is just output impedance (of amp) over input impedance (of speaker+wire). Typing that out has just made me realize that around resonance, where the speaker's impedance spikes to a HIGH value, the damping factor (and therefore cone control) drops by a large amount, so the amp finds it hard to control the cone during resonance, which makes sense. I'm starting to get it!! :ugeek:

5 mins later... :slap: :wall: :owned: :bull:

Right, that's it, I have a dodgy internet connection and have had to use my phone's connection to finish this post - thought I lost everything, but luckily the back button saved all my typing :clap:

Oh, I'm waffling so much that I forgot to say that after setting up the speakers stacked and V-plated, the neighbours came back just as I was about to switch on and give it some welly, so my tests had to be at low(er) volume. Even so, OMG, it was pumping and my mixer wasn't even registering an RMS or a PEAK signal (it's meters go down to -24dB and show both... yeah, Behringer are shit!). The speakers are positioned in the middle of the garage and are causing cancellations (yes, I can hear them... getting my ears trained :) ). When I was standing my the CDJs and amp rack, there was a horrible booming, but when I moved around, the sound smoothed out nicely (although there were probably still cancellations, just not at any important frequencies for the particular track I was playing).

Also have been checking in Audacity my favourite test tunes, as I thought they went low... not one of them got below about 45Hz!! Have scanned my tunes dir, and got some that dig a lot lower and I'm looking forward to getting them on the rig tomorrow. It's all coming together. Bwoahahahahaha!

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#139 Post by escapemcp »

Help! :feedback:

I have noticed a big dip at 2.5 kHz... I figured that I may have the tweeters wired with the wrong polarity, so I did a full polarity check.

I noticed that the crossover between subs and tops was wrong, so instead of reversing the tweeters, I reversed the Otop woofer instead. Checked with the subs and now when I turn up the volume on the Otops with the subs running the level now increases :hyper:

However when I checked the tweets again the 2.5kHz dip was still there :confused:

Any thoughts?

Will be checking tomorrow and will unsolder both arrays if that's what it will take, but hoping there is a simpler way to figure it out.

Many thanks :)

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DJPhatman
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#140 Post by DJPhatman »

escapemcp wrote:Help! :feedback:

I have noticed a big dip at 2.5 kHz... I figured that I may have the tweeters wired with the wrong polarity, so I did a full polarity check.

I noticed that the crossover between subs and tops was wrong, so instead of reversing the tweeters, I reversed the Otop woofer instead. Checked with the subs and now when I turn up the volume on the Otops with the subs running the level now increases :hyper:

However when I checked the tweets again the 2.5kHz dip was still there :confused:

Any thoughts?

Will be checking tomorrow and will unsolder both arrays if that's what it will take, but hoping there is a simpler way to figure it out.

Many thanks :)
Can you post an RTA of the response? Was this in room? I'm thinking it's a reflection out-of-phase causing the cancellations.
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#141 Post by escapemcp »

DJPhatman wrote: Can you post an RTA of the response? Was this in room? I'm thinking it's a reflection out-of-phase causing the cancellations.
Thanks DJP :)
I am out at the moment, but will post pics when I get home tomorrow.
FYI: It was in the centre of my double garage with the mic at either 1.5m OR 3m away (both produced the same result). Hoping it is that, but it's just too shitty outside to do a "no boundaries" RTA :( When I built the array I never checked that ALL of my tweeters were in phase as the few that I did check matched the polarity indicated. Even if it was this, then I'd be down on EVERYTHING above 2.5, yes?? <--That's me hoping that I won't have to dismantle the array!! :lol:
Thanks

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LelandCrooks
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#142 Post by LelandCrooks »

Tube check your arrays. You might have 1 or more tweeters with diminished ouput or not working. It will affect the whole array.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#143 Post by escapemcp »

LelandCrooks wrote:Tube check your arrays. You might have 1 or more tweeters with diminished ouput or not working. It will affect the whole array.
Thanks Leland :) Last time i tried this it wasn't very successful - I seem to have a hard time discerning the sounds coming from individual tweeters. I'll try again though as the method obviously works or you guys wouldn't use it. It's probably use error my end :? Would pink noise be the best to do this test with for a more 'over all' sound, or would it be best to use a 2.5kHz tone where the issue should be more pronounced?

Other things I am planning to try are:
1. Test the tweeters with the woofer disconnected (and vice-versa)
2. Move the measurement mic off axis to see if the dip frequency rises as the distance difference between the tweeter and woofer reduces.
3. Test outside to reduce reflections, or build a rough and ready anecohic chamber using spare egg crate foam and Tyrotex.

Hopefully one of these will give me a hint as to what is going on. :fingers:

Thanks again... I thought my system sounded good before, but it can sound even better :hyper: I managed to put one beat through the system at FULL POWER the other day and it sounded like a gunshot! Very tight and VERY LOUD :hyper:

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#144 Post by escapemcp »

I think I've found it... reversed the woofer in the Otop and still had a dip, although not as severe. Then I RTA'd it and I now have a flatish frequency response when running pink noise through the system (+/- 2dB) This was done in a very quick 20 minute troubleshoot session, so more testing to be done, but I think that's got it. Many thanks for your help everyone :) More to follow once I have confirmed the results (still thinking of rechecking the whole tweeter array, just to be 100% sure).

Grant Bunter
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#145 Post by Grant Bunter »

Mate,
You're not going to get it truly sorted until you can get to RTA outside.
It's been said many times before, anomolies are more often than not due to the room.

You could change the position of the cabs and the dip might be at another frequency...

You need to track down your + and - minus paths through your LF passive crossover in the Otops, and check the polarity of the Drivers, ie positive voltage on the + terminal of the driver makes the cone move forward, to make sure that is all correct.

While swapping the polarity of the driver in your room may have solved your room problem, as far as the system goes it may not have been the right thing to do without checking as outlined above...
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T39's: 4 x 20" KL3010LF , 2 x 28" 3012LF.
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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#146 Post by escapemcp »

Grant, Ok... understood :) I will get it outside for an RTA asap, but for now, there is a nasty storm on the way, so I will have to hold fire until it has passed - I don't get the luxury that you get of wide open, always sunny spaces :)
TBH I have never been too sure on Bill's crossovers. Isn't the crossover supposed to reverse the phase (or is that in higher order crossovers?). Also in the plans for the Otops, Bill has put one of the diagrams (either tweeter or woofer crossover) with 'positive in' at the top of the diagram, and the other with 'positive in' at the bottom, which has lead me to quite a bit of confusion. I have never been CERTAIN of my polarities, so I think a full check tomorrow is well overdue!

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DJPhatman
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#147 Post by DJPhatman »

escapemcp wrote:Grant, Ok... understood :) I will get it outside for an RTA asap, but for now, there is a nasty storm on the way, so I will have to hold fire until it has passed - I don't get the luxury that you get of wide open, always sunny spaces :)
TBH I have never been too sure on Bill's crossovers. Isn't the crossover supposed to reverse the phase (or is that in higher order crossovers?). Also in the plans for the Otops, Bill has put one of the diagrams (either tweeter or woofer crossover) with 'positive in' at the top of the diagram, and the other with 'positive in' at the bottom, which has lead me to quite a bit of confusion. I have never been CERTAIN of my polarities, so I think a full check tomorrow is well overdue!
These are not crossovers. They are filters to improve response at the transition frequencies between the woofer and the piezo array. The woofer gets a high and a low pass filter, the piezos get a high pass filter. While they are similar to crossover components, they are designed specifically for piezo arrays.
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#148 Post by escapemcp »

DJP.. filters, crossovers, whatever... they are still confusing when in the woofer filter it has the '+ve in' on the bottom of the diagram, whilst the piezo filter has the +ve coming in on the top. Or is this intentional for some reason... Bill?

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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#149 Post by Rickisan »

These are not crossovers they are filters
I disagree(respectfully), for our purposes, a "crossover" and a "filter" are one and the same.

If they are not I certainly need to be enlightened as to the difference.
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escapemcp
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Re: 2 x T30 Slim Build Log

#150 Post by escapemcp »

Still haven't got round to polarity checking. I am currently reinforcing the front handle of one of my subs, thanks to weak wood. I will post pics of how I did it in a bit.

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