SAC Question - Just Curious...

The hows and whys of running sound.
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bgavin
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#16 Post by bgavin »

BrentEvans wrote:Bob codes in Assembly for best performance, and while I'm sure the dual core issue is on the list, he's hinted that it's not top priority, as there are multiple very viable workarounds.
Bravo.
When going gets tough, the tough go to ASM.
I've been an ASM coder since the early 70's, and admire anybody who still practices the Dark Arts.

.NET is an interpreted module, and inherently slow by design.
It is the solution for programmers too busy, or too stupid to write directly to the WIN32 API.
Trillions of cycles are wasted by the interpreter trying to protect the programmer from himself.

Bob would get a much bigger performance boost by disabling the eye candy and unnecessary services.
However, this is much more involved than it seems on the surface, due to the dependencies that vary by Windows version and Service Pack level.
My EZ-Tweak program does this, but is still in development, because of all these dependencies.
Turning off the junk reduces the memory foot print substantially, and produces faster benchmarks.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

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BrentEvans
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#17 Post by BrentEvans »

bgavin wrote: Bob would get a much bigger performance boost by disabling the eye candy and unnecessary services.
However, this is much more involved than it seems on the surface, due to the dependencies that vary by Windows version and Service Pack level.
My EZ-Tweak program does this, but is still in development, because of all these dependencies.
Turning off the junk reduces the memory foot print substantially, and produces faster benchmarks.
There are recommended procedures for this on the RML site. Nothing in his interface is "Windows Standard."
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

bgavin
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#18 Post by bgavin »

The Windows Common Controls are native to the OS.
They are also very mature, and sit right on top of the Win32 API. Writing to these is fast.

It is faster to completely write directly to the Win32 API, but that takes a coder with smarts.
Most do not meet that requirement.
He can also call directly the Win32 API from ASM modules.

If speed is that important, perhaps he should chuck Win32 altogether in favor of a stable Linux distribution.
Then he could custom compile the kernel to keep only what is required.
IMO, this would be the ticket for a huge SAC machine with lots of plugins.

Perhaps I've been in the computer business too long, but the thought of producing sound for an A-list act, or doing air traffic control with a Windows operating system just scares the shit out of me...
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

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BrentEvans
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#19 Post by BrentEvans »

It's been discussed. Speed is a concern, but if Bob went Linux he'd lose compatibility for a number of supported pieces of hardware. Some of those that do work have inferior drivers, resulting in higher latency. It also requires a more advanced user to install and maintain in most cases. Additionally, many plugs are windows only. Sticking with windows and making it work is just the best solution for commercial user level apps for now.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#20 Post by bgavin »

The long term solution is running the Windows slobbering hog at the FOH for the user interface, then running a bare bones execution machine at the stage. The computing engine doesn't require the GUI to function, so it has trillions of free cycles to devote to heavy plugin consumption.

As you note.. SAC is already a released product, meaning it is already compromised to work in the windows environment.
One can always count on Intel to produce faster hardware to compensate for the porcine operating system.

The problem with i7 hardware is significant heat generation.
This can become very problematic outoors, especially in the Saramento heat.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

gdougherty
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#21 Post by gdougherty »

VST and DirectX plugin support are the two major issues with switching to a LINUX variant. But come on Bruce, as much as you've been around it, I'd think you'd also recognize that XP with good hardware and good drivers will run stable for weeks and months on end. If it's a stripped down nLite install with nothing but the basics, it's likely even better. Throw it behind a good regulated UPS and build it for optimal cooling and it'll be every bit as reliable as any of the big digital boards. Well, except for the one (I can't remember which) that will at least continue passing audio even if the board goes down.
I'll admit I've had SAC crash in the past, but it's typically when playing around with 3rd party VST plugins. Everything I use in that regard is free and some of them have been a little less than compliant. Thankfully, all the times I've had it crash were while playing around with plugins when I should be, which is not during a live show. The core operations of SAC are quite stable and are only becoming more so as we find little oddities of behavior, none of which would interrupt a show. My rig is built on a quality Gigabyte motherboard because, like you, I'm a fan of their "Ultra Durable" build methodology and quality components. I'm running a Western Digital Black hard drive, quality memory and a nice E8400 chip. Burned it in with Memtest and stability has been a non-issue. The rackmount I use has a dust filter up front and I've got the cooling setup properly so I've got static pressure pulling all the airflow in through the filter. Even outdoors in a dusty environment it's been beuatifully solid. The biggest problem was dust on the monitor reducing visibility.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#22 Post by gdougherty »

bgavin wrote:The long term solution is running the Windows slobbering hog at the FOH for the user interface, then running a bare bones execution machine at the stage. The computing engine doesn't require the GUI to function, so it has trillions of free cycles to devote to heavy plugin consumption.

As you note.. SAC is already a released product, meaning it is already compromised to work in the windows environment.
One can always count on Intel to produce faster hardware to compensate for the porcine operating system.

The problem with i7 hardware is significant heat generation.
This can become very problematic outoors, especially in the Saramento heat.

I had the same idea and suggested it to Bob. I'd love to see SAC move that direction. He's already got the model of sorts with the remote application vs the host. The problem is all the development effort he's invested into it in the current model and the amount of effort it'd take to switch. You'd still be stuck on Windows though for the plugin support, or having to invest some serious time in developing a virtual environment for the plugin to operate. Unless you remoted the audio stream you'd likely run into issues as well with remote meters and spectrum analyzer plugins that aren't of Bob's making or built specifically for the SAC remote model. It's a good idea and one that has merit, but I don't think we'll ever see it in SAC.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#23 Post by bgavin »

gdougherty wrote:But come on Bruce, as much as you've been around it, I'd think you'd also recognize that XP with good hardware and good drivers will run stable for weeks and months on end.
Indeed, but Windows is still a slobbering hawg.
Good drivers are easy on paper... much harder in real code. Daunting, in fact. VERY complicated.
When you have a bug in a Visual Studio runtime DLL, that bug is encapsulated in all your code. Oops.

My XP laptop runs my FOH data input at my events. Hand-built, very stable. And stripped down to a minimum.
Not every machine is stable, hardware-wise.
Some drivers are beyond awful, unless running under Vista. Leland and I went down that road.

Under Windows, the shared DLL nightmare is one reason why it crashes with a 3rd party plugin.
Real operating systems run the OS in the protected rings, and the apps in the non-privileged rings.
They do not allow every VB coder to write a DLL that incorporates itself into the system kernel.
This is easy to spot... "do you want to restart your computer now?" This is the tip-off.

In a real OS, the application knocks on the door and waits to be let in.
It is granted access and told to sit politely until it is ready to do work.
When ready, the app raises its hand and asks to use a system resource.
If the app misbehaves (storage violation), the OS picks it up and kicks it out. Bye, bye.

Under the Windows tinker-toy OS, the app is less a guest, and more like the brother-in-law from Hell.
It kicks in your front door without permission then makes itself at home.
Once inside, it commandeers your couch and puts its feet wherever it damn well pleases.
Then it wanders around the kitchen and helps itself to your beer, pretzels and snoops through your checkbook.
It mistreats your dog and squeezes your wife's butt whenever it wants to.
It is known for locking others out of the bathroom for long time periods.
When it gets bored, it goes upstairs and roots around in the wife's lingerie drawer and wears your socks.
When you try to throw the bum out, it burns your house down.

***

The above is humorous, but essentially accurate.
As you note above, a well constructed system will indeed run for months.
I use Server 2003 for SMTP and WEB, and it stays up until we have a (regular) power outage.
It never goes on Facebook, never Tweets, runs no applications, just file serving. Rock solid.

The trick to Windows is top-drawer hardware, and a fresh build from the CD.
Uninstall ALL the eye candy and unnecessary junk (MSN, Messenger, Fax, Media Player, etc, etc).
No antivirus, no media player, no IE upgrades, no sound drivers, no themes, no wallpaper.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

gdougherty
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#24 Post by gdougherty »

bgavin wrote: As you note above, a well constructed system will indeed run for months.
I use Server 2003 for SMTP and WEB, and it stays up until we have a (regular) power outage.
It never goes on Facebook, never Tweets, runs no applications, just file serving. Rock solid.

The trick to Windows is top-drawer hardware, and a fresh build from the CD.
Uninstall ALL the eye candy and unnecessary junk (MSN, Messenger, Fax, Media Player, etc, etc).
No antivirus, no media player, no IE upgrades, no sound drivers, no themes, no wallpaper.
And what you describe is basically what we all use for SAC systems. Good hardware with stable and well written drivers and an app (SAC) that is very solid in and of itself.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#25 Post by bgavin »

A stable hardware platform is almost always DIY.
The commercial vendors are out. No Dell, no HP, no Sony, etc.
There are some internet vendors who build customs but so many are ASUS based. No thanks.

As you found out with the Gigabyte boards, the "enthusiast" products are the better quality.
Don't overlook the embedded video boards with Intel GMAC. These are stable and perform well for all but gaming.
The downside is the loss of 100% solid polymer caps.

Power supply choice is another gotcha...
Antec is so problematic with bad caps, that I refuse to use them.
I settled on Corsair HX series with modular cabling.

For outdoor use, high end cooling is a must.
Not only for the processor, but for the chipset and VRM.
The above Gigagbyte boards offer heat pipe cooling for both bridges and the VRM.
I use a Rocket V cooler in an empty PCI slot to cool the bridge heat pipe system.
I also favor big downdraft coolers, such as the Zipang (with bolt-through kit), or AXP-140, if you have the case room.

For next season, I want a BB enclosure for a tower case where I can use a furnace filter at the front for dust control.
My disk drive cage inlets from the front, so I want it filtered also.
I want the front large enough to enclose a 2 liter bottle of frozen water for inlet cooling.
My summer events are routinely well above 100F. This is complete torture for laptops.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#26 Post by BrentEvans »

bgavin wrote: I want the front large enough to enclose a 2 liter bottle of frozen water for inlet cooling.
Wouldn't that cause a condensation problem?
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

bgavin
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#27 Post by bgavin »

Yes. I figure a wick and collection tray arrangement would do the trick.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.

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Harley
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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#28 Post by Harley »

bgavin wrote:Yes. I figure a wick and collection tray arrangement would do the trick.
Get hold of this filter media - P15/500s

Image

It's a washable media and will be available by googling the words Viledon agent USA .

Being a washable media, it acts perfectly as a coalescor and therefore you'd put that after the frozen bottle in the air stream to stop any water drops that may get airborne.

Just make a simple frame to hold the media.
ImageSemi-retired: Former Australia and New Zealand Authorised BFM cab builder.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#29 Post by BrentEvans »

Nifty.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.

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Re: SAC Question - Just Curious...

#30 Post by SGenter »

I initially brought the SAC info to this site, before that everyone was just raving about their Yamahas...LOL

SAC is a live audio console and SAW works in tandem as recording software. I'm an official trainer and reseller of complete systems.

If you need any help just PM me.

David Carter wrote:For those of you who've boarded the SAC train and have been talking it up around here lately, I have a question just to satisfy my curiosity. I was browsing around their website and forums yesterday, and I could not figure out the difference between SAC and SAWStudio. It appears they are both my the same developer and are two distinct products, but I couldn't find any info comparing/contrasting the two.

Anyone?...

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