I would expect so. Many of the high end pro audio companies bend over backwards if you're having a critical issue in the middle of the show. Difference as you pointed out earlier, is that the Venue has been tested up and down in most every way before it rolled out of the factory.BrentEvans wrote:Oh, and one more thing. If Venue has a problem, can you call the lead developer and expect an answer, or a quick callback in person? Dunno how long it'll last, but Bob takes calls...
StudioLive 16.4.2
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gdougherty
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Warning: OT comments inside
I read somewhere years ago that the Aardvark people (or person) are the same people who started Antelope Audio. It makes sense:
1) Aardvark was always recognized for its amazing clocks/sync.
2) Antelope's focus is on clocks/sync.
3) And I just now confirmed it on the Antelope site: http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/company.html "Antelope is the brainchild of Igor Levin, best known for creating the legendary AardSync."
I'll probably bug Antelope every so often to try to get driver specs released. It doesn't really help us in SAC land, however, unless someone wants to run SAC under WINE.
I'm in the same boat. I really like/liked my Aark24, and it's a shame the developers never released specs to the ALSA community for continued driver development. But I hang onto this thing, hoping someday, someone will reverse engineer it. I convinced a buddy to buy the Aark2496 back in '99, because he needed mic pre's, and now he's out of luck, too. Maybe I'll grab it from him and try to run SAC on XPSP1. lolbgavin wrote:My two Aardvark Q10 boxes still work, but the drivers are stuck forever in XP/SP1 land.
They will never run at SP2 or higher, and never run under Vista/Win7.
I read somewhere years ago that the Aardvark people (or person) are the same people who started Antelope Audio. It makes sense:
1) Aardvark was always recognized for its amazing clocks/sync.
2) Antelope's focus is on clocks/sync.
3) And I just now confirmed it on the Antelope site: http://www.antelopeaudio.com/en/company.html "Antelope is the brainchild of Igor Levin, best known for creating the legendary AardSync."
I'll probably bug Antelope every so often to try to get driver specs released. It doesn't really help us in SAC land, however, unless someone wants to run SAC under WINE.
Josh
Atlanta, GA
THTLP, former owner of T48
Atlanta, GA
THTLP, former owner of T48
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bgavin
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Even with full source, debugging those Q10 drivers is a formidable task.
Nothing about Windows device drivers is easy.
I'm reading a development book on coding them at bed time... puts me right to sleep.
Nothing about Windows device drivers is easy.
I'm reading a development book on coding them at bed time... puts me right to sleep.
My biggest worry is that when I'm dead and gone, my wife will sell my toys for what I said I paid for them.
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jeffbabcock
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Sorry if my post seemed like I was being a troll.... not intended that way.
I have not checked out SAC's latest version, I last tried it about a year ago. Seems some good improvements have been made. I might check it out again sometime if there was a scenario where it might fit.
I still think calling SAC the future of mixing is a bit of a stretch. Gdougherty says BE's have accepted it, but I would question what level of BE's these were. The touring BE's I encounter I guarantee would put up a really big stink if I showed up with SAC to a show.
On another note, the Behringer preamps are not terrible, I wasn't saying that. But the difference between them and a professional preamp is considerable. I don't doubt the sound quality of the ADA's would be on par with something like an O1V or similar - I have used them but not done any direct comparisons. FWIW the venue sounds better than PM5D and a lot better than M7CL and below IMHO for comparison purposes. Of course RME pre's are a lot better option than the ADA's if you can afford them for the SAC rig.
BTW, for those asking, Venue has a dedicated phone support hotline. And there is a great support network, if you have problems the service is outstanding. Of course you pay for that service partly in the cost of the consoles.
I guess what it comes down to is this-
If you are running shows where you are doing most of the mixing and there are no riders, use whatever floats your boat. SAC is certainly cheap and powerful if you are happy mixing on a screen.
Maybe I haven't given SAC a fair chance. But I would also argue that you really have to mix on a Venue console before you can understand some of the comments I am making about usability and sound quality. It is really well thought out and very quick to get around on, even in "on the fly" types of situations with handy features like "gain guess" that can sense inputs and auto set your gain for you if you're in a hurry.
I have not checked out SAC's latest version, I last tried it about a year ago. Seems some good improvements have been made. I might check it out again sometime if there was a scenario where it might fit.
I still think calling SAC the future of mixing is a bit of a stretch. Gdougherty says BE's have accepted it, but I would question what level of BE's these were. The touring BE's I encounter I guarantee would put up a really big stink if I showed up with SAC to a show.
On another note, the Behringer preamps are not terrible, I wasn't saying that. But the difference between them and a professional preamp is considerable. I don't doubt the sound quality of the ADA's would be on par with something like an O1V or similar - I have used them but not done any direct comparisons. FWIW the venue sounds better than PM5D and a lot better than M7CL and below IMHO for comparison purposes. Of course RME pre's are a lot better option than the ADA's if you can afford them for the SAC rig.
BTW, for those asking, Venue has a dedicated phone support hotline. And there is a great support network, if you have problems the service is outstanding. Of course you pay for that service partly in the cost of the consoles.
I guess what it comes down to is this-
If you are running shows where you are doing most of the mixing and there are no riders, use whatever floats your boat. SAC is certainly cheap and powerful if you are happy mixing on a screen.
Maybe I haven't given SAC a fair chance. But I would also argue that you really have to mix on a Venue console before you can understand some of the comments I am making about usability and sound quality. It is really well thought out and very quick to get around on, even in "on the fly" types of situations with handy features like "gain guess" that can sense inputs and auto set your gain for you if you're in a hurry.
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gdougherty
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Jeff, the Venues look really nice. The price doesn't look too bad either. One BE was a band's engineer who does contract work with one of the larger regional production companies. Not sure how "pro" he is but he's the technical guy for 8 churches and seemed pretty competent around a board.
I was of the same mind as you. Looked at it about a year ago and liked it okay, but I still prefered a "real" console. When it came down to spending the money I looked again and was impressed by where it stood. Updates coming in the next release or two will round out many of the features I still find lacking and make it even easier to use.
There are several users/companies who still provide whatever's requested at FOH, but use SAC in monitor world wherever they can. In terms of flexibility, features and outputs for monitors, a moderately priced SAC rig will trounce pretty much all other comers.
The big wish point I have that'll likely go unfulfilled is integration with the preamps. That auto-guess feature seems like a pretty sweet function. That may be available in some remote controlled preamps, but not within SAC.
SAC is stable enough to use in a pro setting, but there are some things that will likely keep it out of the Pro touring realm, the preamp arrangement is the biggest.
I have a friend who would agree with you on the ADA's. I don't hear a difference myself and based on other reviews I'm not sure whether he "hears" a difference or "sees" a difference based on the brand. Some sound quality things are purely subjective though, so we may never really know. I know the ADA isn't as "pure" as it could be, but some people apparently prefer the harmonic distortion it has, like some people prefer the sound of tube gear.
I was of the same mind as you. Looked at it about a year ago and liked it okay, but I still prefered a "real" console. When it came down to spending the money I looked again and was impressed by where it stood. Updates coming in the next release or two will round out many of the features I still find lacking and make it even easier to use.
There are several users/companies who still provide whatever's requested at FOH, but use SAC in monitor world wherever they can. In terms of flexibility, features and outputs for monitors, a moderately priced SAC rig will trounce pretty much all other comers.
The big wish point I have that'll likely go unfulfilled is integration with the preamps. That auto-guess feature seems like a pretty sweet function. That may be available in some remote controlled preamps, but not within SAC.
SAC is stable enough to use in a pro setting, but there are some things that will likely keep it out of the Pro touring realm, the preamp arrangement is the biggest.
I have a friend who would agree with you on the ADA's. I don't hear a difference myself and based on other reviews I'm not sure whether he "hears" a difference or "sees" a difference based on the brand. Some sound quality things are purely subjective though, so we may never really know. I know the ADA isn't as "pure" as it could be, but some people apparently prefer the harmonic distortion it has, like some people prefer the sound of tube gear.
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Hey Doc just purchased my version of SAC today.Cant wait to get it going.Hopefully by next spring we will be 100% digital on the front end.BTW have you (Doc) or anyone else tried the Alesis IO26 interfaces. From what I understand they will allow 8 Channels of ADA right to Firewire into your PC removing the need for a lightpipe converter! At 250.00 per unit 4 would put you into 32 x 32 territory for $1000.00 and with 2 laptops that's a wireless snake as well! Along with that each unit also has ADAT I/O s as well making further expandability an option for say digital recording! I also liked the individual LEDs, phantom power and trim pots per channel.It also has phones outs on it which from what I understand is one problem associated with SAC!
I would wonder if the ADAs on the Alesis are better then the Behringers.
BTW Bob Lentini (SAC Creator) is from the Philly area (now in LA) and in fact does answer the phone! Pretty cool.My buddy and I each bought a copy. I'm dully impressed with being able to split the inputs allowing seperate EQs for the endless (ok not endless but who's gonna use 24 monitor mixes). That is quite the coolest feature and what sold me on the system.The biggest drawback of digital desks is not being able to split the inputs without adding channels.
I'll start adding the components through the winter.
BTW did you mount your components in a shock rack? I was thinking putting the ADAs and the main PC in a shock rack. The main PC inside a server case with fans PS HDDs etc.I was also thing about picking up a few netbooks. Imagine a netbook at each wedge position dialing in the wedge while standing in front of it.How sweet would that be.
Biggest question for Mr Lentini next time I call him. Is it possible to integrate SAC into a touch screen format like Wonderware! Since he's a coder type of person I would bet this would tickle his fancy a bit.I would drool at a touchscreen version far over any Digital Desk!
I would wonder if the ADAs on the Alesis are better then the Behringers.
BTW Bob Lentini (SAC Creator) is from the Philly area (now in LA) and in fact does answer the phone! Pretty cool.My buddy and I each bought a copy. I'm dully impressed with being able to split the inputs allowing seperate EQs for the endless (ok not endless but who's gonna use 24 monitor mixes). That is quite the coolest feature and what sold me on the system.The biggest drawback of digital desks is not being able to split the inputs without adding channels.
I'll start adding the components through the winter.
BTW did you mount your components in a shock rack? I was thinking putting the ADAs and the main PC in a shock rack. The main PC inside a server case with fans PS HDDs etc.I was also thing about picking up a few netbooks. Imagine a netbook at each wedge position dialing in the wedge while standing in front of it.How sweet would that be.
Biggest question for Mr Lentini next time I call him. Is it possible to integrate SAC into a touch screen format like Wonderware! Since he's a coder type of person I would bet this would tickle his fancy a bit.I would drool at a touchscreen version far over any Digital Desk!
Ever since I replaced sex with food I cant even get into my own pants!
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gdougherty
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Check on those Alesis units. I have a firewire M-Audio unit that only allows one at a time with 16 additional channels via ADAT. Works well for a 24 channel portable system but not much else. The drivers have to support wrapping them all up as one large channel interface via ASIO as well. My first impression would be to run far away from the Alesis units given my experience with other Alesis gear. The ADA8000's are constantly remarked as being surprisingly good for the price. Alesis mixers and other units I've used had predictably poor preamps for their price. For Pro setups, you want a dedicated internal card over Firewire. FW will work, but not at the same latencies and not with the same channel count. My RME RayDAT cost a bunch ($830), but I can add a second one easily and bump to 64 channels. Hang out on the forums, read everything you can there before you move on hardware. If you want a pro setup use MOTU or RME with RME preferred because of occasional bad past experiences with MOTU and Windows support. RME also has some excellent clocks, which helps out a lot with the ADA8000's. RME drivers are multi-client so you can record all inputs through any multi-track software if you don't want to spend $1200 on SAW Studio to get the SAC/SAW Link functionality. You won't get that with most of your lower cost gear.Ron K wrote:Hey Doc just purchased my version of SAC today.Cant wait to get it going.Hopefully by next spring we will be 100% digital on the front end.BTW have you (Doc) or anyone else tried the Alesis IO26 interfaces. From what I understand they will allow 8 Channels of ADA right to Firewire into your PC removing the need for a lightpipe converter! At 250.00 per unit 4 would put you into 32 x 32 territory for $1000.00 and with 2 laptops that's a wireless snake as well! Along with that each unit also has ADAT I/O s as well making further expandability an option for say digital recording! I also liked the individual LEDs, phantom power and trim pots per channel.It also has phones outs on it which from what I understand is one problem associated with SAC!
I would wonder if the ADAs on the Alesis are better then the Behringers.
BTW Bob Lentini (SAC Creator) is from the Philly area (now in LA) and in fact does answer the phone! Pretty cool.My buddy and I each bought a copy. I'm dully impressed with being able to split the inputs allowing seperate EQs for the endless (ok not endless but who's gonna use 24 monitor mixes). That is quite the coolest feature and what sold me on the system.The biggest drawback of digital desks is not being able to split the inputs without adding channels.
I'll start adding the components through the winter.
BTW did you mount your components in a shock rack? I was thinking putting the ADAs and the main PC in a shock rack. The main PC inside a server case with fans PS HDDs etc.I was also thing about picking up a few netbooks. Imagine a netbook at each wedge position dialing in the wedge while standing in front of it.How sweet would that be.
Biggest question for Mr Lentini next time I call him. Is it possible to integrate SAC into a touch screen format like Wonderware! Since he's a coder type of person I would bet this would tickle his fancy a bit.I would drool at a touchscreen version far over any Digital Desk!
You'll also see we've had some discussions about multi-touch screens. The answer is, not yet. The hardware and drivers aren't quite there yet.
Shockmount cases are always a good idea for sensitive electronics. Fan cooling the case is a good idea too that recently came out.
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jeffbabcock
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Hi Ron,Ron K wrote: Imagine a netbook at each wedge position dialing in the wedge while standing in front of it.How sweet would that be.
Actually I have been doing this with the Venue console, it would work great with SAC too. I use a tablet pc, and walk onstage to tune the wedges, and can stand right beside the musicians for monitor checks.
It is pretty amazing and blows a lot of musicians' minds, not to mention making communication easier. Hearing exactly what they hear is of great benefit sometimes. Since doing this I have had numerous compliments from musicians saying that they have never had such good monitor mixes.
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
That's a real nice feature!Wedges are so hard to get mixed right to begin with and so often we are asked for pristine sounding ones to boot.I often will spend 10-15 mins per wedge shouting to my Brother the monitor engineer the freqs and tones to adjust.With both of us on some netbooks we could probably knock 1/2 hr off a 4 mix wedge systems ringing out.Monitor mixes for us are one of our strongest selling points. We do so many vocal oriented groups that good wedges are a must on almost every job.jeffbabcock wrote:Hi Ron,Ron K wrote: Imagine a netbook at each wedge position dialing in the wedge while standing in front of it.How sweet would that be.
Actually I have been doing this with the Venue console, it would work great with SAC too. I use a tablet pc, and walk onstage to tune the wedges, and can stand right beside the musicians for monitor checks.
It is pretty amazing and blows a lot of musicians' minds, not to mention making communication easier. Hearing exactly what they hear is of great benefit sometimes. Since doing this I have had numerous compliments from musicians saying that they have never had such good monitor mixes.
DOC I'll take your advice about the forums and the Alesis gear.I really haven't made any decisions about what hardware I'm gonna move into just yet.As much as I like the O1V the split EQs for doing wedge mixes sold me on SAC along with how simple going wireless is.I can live with the interface issues and working with a mouse etc.
Ya know I just priced those B-Ringer ADAs from my buddy who has a Parts Express Commercial Account and they can be had for under $180.00 ea.
Thanx again for the suggestions fellas.Fire away if you think there's more I or anyone would find of interest.
@ Jeff .....I dont discount that Venue system one bit as I know a few folks who swear by them.I just dont have the coin to drop on something like that without stepping up to the next level which I simply am not prepared to do right now.I've got 2 teenagers who will be heading off to College in a few years so any major moves will be waiting till they at least finish their first 4 years!
Ever since I replaced sex with food I cant even get into my own pants!
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gdougherty
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
I took my wedgehorn's outdoors and got my baseline EQ on them with one 7-band Studio EQ. From there I just drop another on them, pull up the MAnalyzer plugin and then identify and kill at least the first 7 feedback points by just enough to keep them from ringing to give another 10db or so of headroom. I double check the other monitors for similar feedback freq's and either start fresh or drop the same peset across them. I rang out monitors the other day in 5 minutes and had no problems the entire night except when a vocalist lazily pointed his mic at the monitor. Even just being onstage with the band at a monitor mix position helps considerably.Ron K wrote:That's a real nice feature!Wedges are so hard to get mixed right to begin with and so often we are asked for pristine sounding ones to boot.I often will spend 10-15 mins per wedge shouting to my Brother the monitor engineer the freqs and tones to adjust.With both of us on some netbooks we could probably knock 1/2 hr off a 4 mix wedge systems ringing out.Monitor mixes for us are one of our strongest selling points. We do so many vocal oriented groups that good wedges are a must on almost every job.
Ya know I just priced those B-Ringer ADAs from my buddy who has a Parts Express Commercial Account and they can be had for under $180.00 ea.
Thanx again for the suggestions fellas.Fire away if you think there's more I or anyone would find of interest.
I believe Brent got his 4 ADA800's for something like $165/ free shipping from Full Compass with a phone call. Northern Sound has them regularly for about $168 + shipping.
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BrentEvans
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
Talk to Cal Mazzara. He can do better deals than some of the other reps. Drop my name if you like, I'm surely not his best customer but it might mean something.gdougherty wrote:I believe Brent got his 4 ADA800's for something like $165/ free shipping from Full Compass with a phone call. Northern Sound has them regularly for about $168 + shipping.
99% of the time, things that aren't already being done aren't being done because they don't work. The other 1% is split evenly between fools and geniuses.
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
StudioLive 24.4.2 was release at NAMM. Should be shipping in a couple months.
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gdougherty
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Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
For those interested in SAC, 2.4 was recently released with better touch screen features. 2.3 brought the ability to control many plugins from the remote client. VST aren't fully realtime, but most of them work.
Re: StudioLive 16.4.2
I want to second the comments by gdoughtry and the other SAC users. I have been using the SAC system several times a week for the past 3 months. My only other digital experience was the use of an Yamaha LS9 so I don't have a baseline of comparision concerning any of the Venue desks. I will tell you that I am continually blown away by the functionality and features of SAC. The comments regarding the sound quality, compared to the LS9 and / or the analog boards I've used ...well..those comments just keep comin'. If you are new to SAC or digital mixing in general, I'd advise you go slow. The only time I've gotten into trouble was thru my own misunderstanding of a function or application. I should have tested things out more thoroughly so as to really get what I was trying to do. The SAC computer has run extremely stable. I've taught a helper with little live audio experience to run the system. I've had a very experienced sound tech friend (whose experience is 20+ years , all on analog boards) mix for my band on the SAC system and was able to be up and running with most things after 20 min. of instruction . All in all....a great system. I don't regret my investment in it at all. My band was blown away by the ease of set up and the quality of sound the first time we used it.