electric guitar monitor

[Randall Dibble]

Regarding dispersion and open back vs closed back cabinets.

This could a different thread but the OP was asking for advice on choice of cabinets.

This issue enters into the age old dispute among band members. As a bassist I care a great deal about the drummers existence and condition. The rhythm section determines if the act is bad, good or great. I try to keep drummers happy.

Drummers and Guitarist being to loud is the most common disagreements in act I've played in over last 40 years. Sometimes I think they are competing with each other.

In defense of others on stage hearing the guitarist isn't a common problem in medium to small clubs. We step back while the guitar player is soloing “yanking away” and reaching for that high note beyond the 12th fret because the piercing high note are going right through us. As for the drummer with back of the cabinet generally aimed a him may explain why they play loud and act so goofy.

The use of the FX cabinet with a closed back and a flat response maybe useful when needing wide dispersion for medium and smaller clubs including amp modelers. But when playing larger clubs running the guitar to the P.A. to FOH and back again out the monitors solves dispersion problems on stage including volume.

Of course this difference of opinion could be just caulked up to Guitarist -vs- Bassist or maybe West Michigan vs East Michigan and all the other interstate disputes over priorities of our existence and use of our taxes. As for me I refuse to perform next to the guitarist. I get as far away as possible on stage. My hearing has been damaged enough.

That's my story and I'm sticking to It.

[Tim A]

Tim, does this mean using the EQ to get the amp+cab system relatively flat, then using the Modeler for tone control?

Yes. And I still believe he'll want that EQ to kill the upper frequencies that are simply not present in guitar.

Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss


Randall, you're playing with the wrong guitarists. The last two bassists I've played with have been next to me, and both requested it. So are we talking generalizations, like way-too-loud wankers? That's different than trying to recommend something that'll work for this guy.

I've heard OTop 12, DR200, and DR250's with a guitar hooked up through an amp, modelled and straight. I'd never run any of them. On the other hand, they're as sweet as pie with a mic'd signal through a board as sound reinforcement.

But hey, that's just me. You may think it's the greatest thing since sliced bread.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

But when playing larger clubs running the guitar to the P.A. to FOH and back again out the monitors solves dispersion problems on stage including volume.

True, but you'd be surprised how many guitar'd players won't go through the PA at all, let alone through the monitors. I 'fondly' remember one who, based on the output of his 4x12, insisted that he didn't need to be in the PA, so I didn't run a mic on it. Sure enough, he couldn't be heard anywhere other than directly in front of his cab, not on stage, not in the room. When he asked between sets how he sounded I told him I didn't know, since the board was close to the stage on the side opposite him, and I couldn't hear him. 'Want to go into the PA?' 'No, I'll just turn up.'
I still couldn't hear him. I didn't care, I still got paid.

[Randall Dibble]

Your right it's a generalization.

Agree that the OTop 12, DR200, and DR250's aren't the solution.

The best I've heard are Roland Keyboard Amps and I think the Omni10 or Omni12 maybe able to compete with it if using the setup I suggested above which a bit more involved but can/maybe able produce a higher quality in the right hands.

In regards to open back speaker cabinets is the only point we disagree based on the same reasoning. Our perspective are different based on different roles we play in a band and position on stage and level of experience.

As for you being the right guitarist, I'd love to come over that side of the state to hear your act this summer. I' sure you are exception to my generalizations.

In regards to the bassist setting up next to the guitar player, they just don't now any better. "that's a Joke son"

Remember guitarist must learn to take joke as well drummers. Keyboads players are the biggest joke, who heard of playing instrument with only the right hand "above waist level". Be care lead singers have not sense of humour and finally bassist are perfect so there is not a possibility of a joke.

And Yes Sliced bread is great! A inexpensive consistent quality product with low time and labour cost.

Yes, it's not like fresh baked "a non-modeled guitar/amps setup" but is the next best thing "modeling guitar/amp effects" but saving mother "guitarist" a lot of time after come home from the Job and trying to bake fresh bread and make dinner both.

There was a day 50 years or so ago when women where not considered a good wife if they didn't bake bread fresh. Store bought sliced bread freed them of the drudgery. Modeling amps may free guitarist from the same way. I hope not!

As I mentioned the OP will have to create some saw dust to find his own solution and run the danger of speaker cabinet build addiction.

I have to much time on my hands.

I feel the shakes coming on!

Time to make saw dust!!!

[Randall Dibble]

I should have walk to the workshop instead I sat down with a cup of coffee and hit refresh.

Bill, man I've been there more once, it seems a life time. That's one of the reason I've fled the other side of the stage. At times I've plugged in my 100' cord and sat in the audience. The stunt was part of the act but also I could rest my ears. "I'm using EMG Pickups so I have not problem With long cable runs". The last guitarist I played with is much like Tim and can take suggestions and criticism. He also accepted me as a bassist and that I wasn't a want-to-be guitar player. HE accepted that I knew harmony "a Minor in music composition" well enough that I knew where I was going with my bass lines.

I've reached the point that I just move on when I run into those characters. I don't do sound sound for hire so don't have to put up with it.

I just don't care for open backed cabinets bleeding sound everywhere. It's bitch to have to put up plex shields to protect the drum mic's from bleed!

I've got to get away from this computer!

[bgavin]

I've got to get away from this computer!

Yep. I'm busy cutting up 16 sheets of BB to make four T48 and two more OT212.
Unfortunately, I still have a paying business to run, so frequent trips to the computer from the work area.

Have you considered a decent wireless? The Sennheiser G2 is affordable and excellent quality.
I'm looking into a base station + two remotes, one as a wireless mic, the second for instrument.

[Zack Brock]

Tim, with all due respect I'm a little confused about this hissssss that you talk about. If your guitar and amp modeler isn't generating it, where is it coming from? The piezos only produce what is there, not add to it correct? And if it sounds fine in headphones and sounds fine through the FOH PA, why wouldn't it sound fine through a hi-fi BFM speaker? I defer to your experience as a guitarist and an authorized builder however I remain confused.

I've played with a couple of Line 6 guitar modelers as well as the Behringer V-Amp Pro rack mount series using a Gibson Les Paul -> Behringer/Line 6 modeler -> Pro PA Power Amp (QSC, Crown, etc) -> PA Speaker like a Mackie SRM450 and even my Acme Low B bass cabs (considered 'hifi' by most). I've also recorded this way without issue. Granted, none of the cabs I've put them through have piezos but I fail to see how hissss or other undesired anomalies would be produced if the original poster were to properly build his cabs according to the plans. Our current stage monitors (crappy Nady PFW12) have a single piezo and they don't hiss either.

Again, not meaning any disrespect and not trying to argue, just trying to understand. Thanks!

[Tim A]

I can only go by two things: First, my ears and what I've personally experienced. Second, Bill has said over and over again that piezos will make every little anomoly of your amp more obvious.

Note that I've not discounted these cabs. I've not discounted the Omni's, and have even said that one of the cabs with the new compression driver option would be something to consider. It is only the piezos that I'd be concerned about.

[bgavin]

Guitar electronics are noisy. Especially pedals.
The piezos do not generate signal. They only produce what is sent to them.
Hiss In = Hiss Out

The lack of hiss in previous speakers shows the lack of high frequency production ability.

[Tim A]

Guitar electronics are noisy. Especially pedals.
The piezos do not generate signal. They only produce what is sent to them.
Hiss In = Hiss Out

The lack of hiss in previous speakers shows the lack of high frequency production ability.

I also shows something else, at least to me: The fact that a guitar doesn't need a cabinet with that kind of range.

[bgavin]

For sure.

If you put an electric bass on a scope, the most you can get out of it is around 7 KHz in the wee harmonics.

[cjd]

finally... after many delays I have completed a Jack 110. I loaded it with a 2510, and used a flat 6 piezo array and the crossover mod with the 4 ohm resistor on the input of the crossover instead of the output. This weekend I gigged it for the first time, in a sizeable venue (seats ~1000). I came straight out of the modeler and into a DI for the house, and into a small flat response power amp to drive the Jack for the stage. No guitar amp, no guitar cab, no mic. Worked beautifully. No issues with the piezo tweeters. Easily kept up with a loud drummer. Compliments from bandmates and sound crew and, of course, amazement when they picked it up - "that weighs no more than my empty guitar case!".

I'm happy! thanks, Bill!