electric guitar monitor

[cjd]

I've been reading through the forum for a while now and haven't seen a discussion that quite answers my questions. If I have missed something please redirect me.

I play electric guitar. I have to cover a wide range of styles, so using an amp modeler works really well for me. My modeler sounds great at home with headphones, and also run direct into the PA in large venues. But what do *I* listen to on stage (or in rehearsal, or small venues, etc)?

I've tried running it through various guitar amps on stage, but the amp and cab add too much coloration. I've had the best luck using a separate stage monitor, so I was starting to watch craigslist for a used JBL EON. Then I stumbled on Bill's designs and decided I've got to try one of these.

What to build? The O10.5 is very appealing for its size and weight, and should have plenty of output. Is there anything else I should also consider? eg, a WH10?

I'm thinking of making it an airhead. here are a couple of options I have considered from PE:
- 150W plate amp (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=300-797)
- 40W/15W plate bi-amp, 3kHz crossover (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdet ... er=300-774)
Seems like the 40W bi-amp should be adequate power for monitoring my guitar, though it might be underpowered for any other application. how well would it work to bi-amp an O10.5 or WH10? does it make sense to give the piezo's their own amp? any other thoughts?

One last concern: in the thread on amplifying sticks, there was advice to avoid mixing piezos and distortion effects. That makes a lot of sense to me if you run the stick into a distortion pedal into a full range amp then straight into a full range cab, since distortion pedals rely on the high frequency rolloff of a typical guitar cab to sound good. But where I'm using cab models to reproduce that rolloff, should this be a concern for me?

For extra credit: I also play 6-string fretless bass, so if this cab could be part of a useful bass rig, that would be a bonus. But only if it comes for nearly free - if building one cab for both applications requires much compromise, I'd rather build two cabs. However, from what I've read here, an O10.5 (plus maybe a T39 for extra bottom) might whoop the SWR 4x10 cab I've been using.

I have not yet purchased plans, since I'm not yet sure what to order.

any comments and suggestions are welcome. thanks for sharing your experience!

charlie

[DJPhatman]

The XF line of cabs are just the ticket for you! See this on the sales page. get yourself a fairly small single channel amp, and use the speakers of your choice. No piezos in the XF line.

[Randall Dibble]

Sorry DJPhatman I have to disagree!

The XFline adds coloration as well.

He needs a Cabinet and power amp and EQ that adds no or as little coloration possible.

The sound from FOH, Monitor/Amp and headphones should be as close a possible.

A Hi-Fi cabinet like the Omni10 or Omni12 with careful EQ adjustments to achieve this is needed.

In the past I've been on stage with a number of different Roland Keyboards used by guitarist who also using modeling Preamps/devices. I think the a modeling equipment, and 31 band EQ, a clean Solid state amp and an Omni type Cabinet set up with a pink noise generator and setting the EQ flat while running the signal thru the amp without the Modeling Preamp. After that connect the Modeling preamp to the rig and you my come close the FOH sound. I believe there software is out for Home theater crowd that compares the signals and helps with adjustments. It my help!

The only requirement is that the soundman "KEEP HIS DAM HANDS OFF THE CONTROLS". The soundman ask the guitarist for adjustments to his sound.

Sorry, I've been around and around with this issue while working in a live act.

[Chris_Allen]

I would go for the cab that has the flatest response, in this case, that would be the Omni 10.5. This saves messing around with an EQ.

I would make the modification that Mark Coward did and turn it into a monitor. Unfortunately, I can't find the thread.

Chris.

[DJPhatman]

I will defer to the musicians, especially those that have played both guitar and bass... I missed this from the OP:

For extra credit: I also play 6-string fretless bass, so if this cab could be part of a useful bass rig, that would be a bonus. But only if it comes for nearly free - if building one cab for both applications requires much compromise, I'd rather build two cabs. However, from what I've read here, an O10.5 (plus maybe a T39 for extra bottom) might whoop the SWR 4x10 cab I've been using.

So, I'll add a question/suggestion for your comment. Why not an O12 or O15? Yes, they require EQ. But, as a single cab solution, with the better CD drivers, might be the best all-around cab. This is my VHO, and to the OP, do not take this as an endorsement. I have not personally listened to a XF or Omni 12/15. As an added bonus, I do not play guitar, but I am just learning bass.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

For extra credit: I also play 6-string fretless bass, so if this cab could be part of a useful bass rig, that would be a bonus. But only if it comes for nearly free -

O10.5, O10, O12, whichever best suits your packspace. But for bass at decent volumes you'd want two 10.5s. If you want a tiltback cab W10.

[cjd]

I think Randall is on the right track. The FX would suffer from the same problems as the other guitar amp/cabs I've tried.

Chris, those are very persuasive curves, thanks! I think I see a 10.5 in my future...
I saw your thread on SPL chart and look forward to a chance to try it out.

DJPhatman, that's a good question about O12/O15. From the reviews, they would probably sound great for both bass and electric. But they are 2-3x the size and weight of an O10.5. So if the O10.5 will do the job, I would vastly prefer it for a guitar gig. I guess that falls under "too much compromise". hey - good luck picking up bass! may you thunder long and loud

for a tiltback cab, is there a problem with just tilting back a O10.5? those chrome legs Fender uses on their guitar amps come to mind. I like the flatter curve of the O10.5 compared to the WH10.

any thoughts about those plate amps I was looking at?

thanks, all!

[Tim A]

The FX would suffer from the same problems as the other guitar amp/cabs I've tried.

Nope. Not buying it.

Coloration comes from two things, the cab and the speaker.

Most open backed cabs will do very little to color the sound. In those cases, the speaker is the primary culprit. The trick then is to use a flat, colorless speaker.

When I was doing a lot of modeling I built a simple open backed cab and installed an Eminence tonkerlite. It was perfect. The XF took it to the next level in personal monitoring and dispersion.

Build the XF 2-10 in open back. Install Tonkerlites.

I can guarantee, you will hate aything using piezos for guitar. I've tried several of these cabs through many amps. The downfall is always the piezos. They work great when micing, in that they reproduce the source very well. But directly into the cab from an amplified guitar = nasty.

[Randall Dibble]

I'd go with the Omni10 without the Piezos. You can mount them later or install a switch to turn them off when not needed.

Ask most any Drummers what they think of open back guitar cabinets! Almost as much sound comes out of the back as the front. It's difficult to control stage volume and dispersion with open back cabinets. This becomes even a greater problem with smaller clubs.

Remember once you start building cabinets you'll keep experimenting with different designs and create even more saw dust. Always lookin' for the perfect solution.

[cjd]

LOL! sorry Tim, don't mean to be rude. just funny because that's actually the first thing I tried - an open back cab with Tonkerlites. it seemed like a good idea, but it didn't work for me. neither did the Lil'Texas. To get some more HF I tried the Beta-12LTA, which was better but still not great. Yamaha stage monitors sounded pretty good (both 10" and 15"), and a Carvin monitor was ok. Which is how I concluded I needed a full range cab.

tell me more about your modeler, and the power amp you were using.

My modeler includes spkr/cab models, so the signal coming out of it is essentially the same as if I had an amp mic'ed in the back room. The Tonkerlite (like most guitar speakers I've looked at) drops about 25dB in the octave from 5kHz to 10kHz (http://www.eminence.com/pdf/tonkerlite.pdf). If you mic an amp whose speaker does that (or use a model of the same), then run that into another speaker that rolls off like that too, the resulting sound has no life at all. I would guess you were not using spkr/cab models?

I do hear your concern about how bright the piezos are, though. How do they sound when you run a CD of an electric guitar through them? I can certainly put in the on/half/off switch. can I put a compression driver in an O10.5 if the piezos are too harsh?

here's a crazy idea - if I made an .mp3 of my modeler's output, would anybody be interested in playing it through your cab with piezos (O10.5 preferably) and letting us know how it sounds? that may be a bit much to ask...

anyway, I do actually appreciate the dissenting opinion - I always learn more that way

thanks!

[Tom Smit]

I'm willing to try your mp3 but...I don't want to be the only one on this list to do so.
As far as the piezos go, even though my personal experience is limited, I suggest using the full amount (12) melded, along with the on/off/half switch in the 10.5. This allows sensitivity control. And piezos are a whole lot cheaper! This experience comes from reading all the posts on this forum for the past two years. Also, by going this route you'll have a versatile cab.

TomS

[Tim A]

The Tonkerlite (like most guitar speakers I've looked at) drops about 25dB in the octave from 5kHz to 10kHz (http://www.eminence.com/pdf/tonkerlite.pdf). If you mic an amp whose speaker does that (or use a model of the same), then run that into another speaker that rolls off like that too, the resulting sound has no life at all. I would guess you were not using spkr/cab models?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But here's the thing: The 1st string, 22nd fret on a guitar is 1.174kHz. The first harmonic is at 2348, and the second is at 4696. So, how much usable content do you think there is above 5k? Like you said, most guitar speakers do that. There's a reason they're cut off. If you run a cab model that exibits the same features, the obvious way to overcome it is with EQ, although I doubt you'll need as much as you think you do. If you really want your setup to sound like crap, go ahead and build one and install the PE Plate amp...

The piezo issue has nothing to do with brightness. Again, EQ. When used to reproduce an already amplified signal, they're great. But if your intent is modeler>amp head>cab, nastiness will ensue.

You will also experience a goodly amount of hiss, which you will then need to EQ out, and be right back where you started from. Piezos will bring out every little tick your amp has.

If your goal is a dead-flat cabinet, I would seriously consider a DR with the new compression driver option, or possibly an OTop 12. Even though they drop off @ 100Hz, I've had good success with them and an acoustic.

Randall, if we all worried about what the drummer thinks we'd just leave the stage while he bashed away! Dispersion 'control' is the last thing you want in a guitar cab unless it's mic'd all the time. The lack of dispersion is a standard guitar cabinet's biggest problem.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I can guarantee, you will hate anything using piezos for guitar..

That depends on the modeler. Some are voiced for use with a standard guitar cab, and yes, they'll sound nasty through piezos, or any tweeter for that matter. Some are voiced for use through full range hi-fi rigs, so they have adequate low and high frequency filtering to sound good through them, and they won't sound good through guitar cabs. Try running through a hi-fi speaker, if that sounds good then one of our full range cabs will as well.

[Tim A]

That depends on the modeler. Some are voiced for use with a standard guitar cab, and yes, they'll sound nasty through piezos, or any tweeter for that matter. Some are voiced for use through full range hi-fi rigs, so they have adequate low and high frequency filtering to sound good through them, and they won't sound good through guitar cabs. Try running through a hi-fi speaker, if that sounds good then one of our full range cabs will as well.

Most new modelers allow you to choose between outputs for amp or direct. Using the direct line will help, no doubt, but there is still going to be an issue with his amp head choice. I think for it to work right he's going to need a decent pro-sound amp at the least, and possibly a good 31band EQ.

[bgavin]

Tim, does this mean using the EQ to get the amp+cab system relatively flat, then using the Modeler for tone control?

Sorry about the dumb geetar questions, but my geetar experience was years before pedals and electronics.