Hello! Looking to replace a 1200W 810 Bass Rig with BF Setup

[Cajun]

Hey y'all!

I've been lurking the forums for a couple of weeks and emailing a few of you ad nauseum. I just bought Dave Carter's O10, and I can't wait to try it out!

Here is an excerpt from a couple of emails sent to Leland and Dave Carter (some info is repeated):

I'm playing with 3 groups right now, and one of them is a LOUD metal band. Our drummer shreds sticks faster than anyone of us go through strings, and my guitarists have huge Hughes & Kettner stacks... It's loud. I'm looking for something bright and articulate (I love upper mids) but will still kick you in chest (I low lower mids, too). I want something you feel as well as something that cuts through WITHOUT being honky. I like having a bright attack with lots of presence... I'm using a custom bass with G&L P/H config and a Status graphite neck, and I'll play fingerstyle, slap, and tap often. Maybe I'm just being vain, but here's a short clip of a practice session with one of my guitarists: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHBXrnTbKlI Maybe it'll provide some insight?

I love SWR, but I just bought a used Omni10 that I plan stack on a Grape 110 (a San Diego company that died a few years ago). I'm really impressed by what I hear about this cab, and on paper BFM's stuff sounds incredible. However, I've seen so many instances where paper and equations doesn't always line up with real life (Phil Jones Bass for example). I was inches from buying an SWR 215 (discontinued in 2002), but I've been caught offguard by this 210. I'm trying to figure out if I'd be better getting a T39 to stack with the O10 or if I could just get an O15TB (or stack) to replace the 810. I was going to get the SWR 215 to make things easier to move back and forth since I'm splitting so much time between the 3 bands. The other two are heavy prog rock (see above) and an indie/experimental group. I've spent a lot of time lurking Bill's forum and talkbass.com, but I know how enthusiastic people can get about their gear, which makes it hard to gauge exactly how the cabs sound.

[Cajun]

(ME) I'm also thinking about building a sub and selling my 810... But we'll see. The main problem is that I won't have much room to keep my rack stable, especially with such a high center of gravity. I'm trying to decide if I should make a 30" or use two 14"V. If I use the 30", I'd just lay it on its side, and I'd put the O10 on one side with the rack on the other. However, I might be able to use one 14" for the rack and one for the O10.

(Dave) Whatever you do, I believe that you would be much happier with a BFM sub+top rig that an 8x10 (although, as I said before, it's all subject to personal taste and I've never personally used an 8x10). The thing to remember about a sub+top rig (or any multi-cab rig) is that you don't want cabs of different types to be competing in the same frequency range. You need a crossover. It can be an active crossover sitting in your rack or it can be a passive crossover built into your sub, but you need a crossover!

(ME) Well, I plan on using the Omni with a 110 underneath it for a little while (until I can build a sub, I suppose), and then I can compare it to the 810. I've been in many situations where I had ample power to comfortably play and cut through without having to crank my amp (without an 810), but I'd also been in enough situations where I didn't have enough power that I finally decided to go for the 810. Problem is that I'm in 3 groups right now, and the loudest group (metal band, fighting H&K stacks and a whack-it-hard drummer) is also the furthest away. All I've got is a sedan... I'd been using a dinky Peavey combo from their church, but it was never enough.

I guess one of my major concerns is how this will stack up volume-wise to a 1200W 810 pushed with a 1600W amp. (This is also where the ambivalence comes in about the O15 vs the O10+T39.) The speakers in the 810 are 102dB at 37Hz and 13kHz, so they're decently efficient, too. We'll have to see, I guess.

Also, I'd probably buy the kit from speakerhardware.com. It seems to be much cheaper than trying to buy the parts individually. Does that come with a passive Xover, or should I buy the available one from Leland, too? Is there much difference b/t that and an active crossover? I've got a full 8-space rack, so rack real estate is pretty competitive. I may start dropping things and go with a lighter rig, especially if I find that I can get as loud without all of these watts.

(ME) I might just try an O15TB or 2 regular O15's stacked... I can't seem to decide!

(DAVE) I know the feeling all too well (of not being able to decide). In the end, I think that it depends on your needs. If you are playing larger gigs and don't have any PA support for your bass, something like an Omni15 or a T39+DR250 will rock the house. If you have PA support or your gigs are smaller, something like the Omni10 will handle it. I started with the Omni10 because I didn't have a need for large-gig coverage, and small size and lightweight (compared to commercial cabs) were critical to me.

(ME) That's what I figured. I'd take the O10 when I've got PA support or for smaller gigs, and I'd bring the t39 when I need it. I honestly think that with the O10+110, I'll probably be good enough for practice volumes. Gig volumes, though....

I'm also in a prog rock band and an experimental indie group. Here's an unfinished song from the prog group (only the HQ version works for some reason & we still haven't been able to find a drummer since moving out to Cali). And this is the experimental/indie/noise group: http://www.myspace.com/elegantdeadguyan ... immycarter I warn you: It's weird. Like, really weird. We also have a lot of not-so-psycho stuff with actual basslines, acoustic guitars, etc... But these are what we've recorded so far. haha These are both much more my pace than the metal group, but the prog rock has gotten pretty loud in the past. If anything, I'd just want to have a nice full-range rig.

[Cajun]

I had more questions to ask, but I can't remember them since it's 5am. I'm sure they'll come back to me. What do you guys think?



EDIT:

Oh yeah! I also wanted to say that if I do the T39 well, I'll try to make a DR250 to put on the sub.

Also, I'm wondering if I could make a 24" or 30" T39 and if I should go 2X10 or 1X12. Would it be possible to put tilt-back hands/casters on the SIDE of the T39 rather than the back? That way I wouldn't have to struggle with such a wide cab while moving through doorways.

And if I do stack the O15's, it'd be the regular version, not the TallBoys.

[novasak]

If you do the T39, make it as wide as you like, the wider the better up to 30". Use a single 12" 3012LF. Wheels on the bottom/side are not a problem, but locating a handle on top/side will be tricky. Must be air tight at all times.

You need a crossover, and at least 2 separate amp channels for it to work. If you are going to get loud using lots of power (300-400w), don't use a passive crossover, those are better for low power cabinets. Get an active one for reliability and variety.

IMO, the Omni15 is a one cab box, not recommended to stack (though can be done).

good luck, and welcome.

[Cajun]

If you do the T39, make it as wide as you like, the wider the better up to 30". Use a single 12" 3012LF. Wheels on the bottom/side are not a problem, but locating a handle on top/side will be tricky. Must be air tight at all times.

You need a crossover, and at least 2 separate amp channels for it to work. If you are going to get loud using lots of power (300-400w), don't use a passive crossover, those are better for low power cabinets. Get an active one for reliability and variety.

IMO, the Omni15 is a one cab box, not recommended to stack (though can be done).

Thanks, man!

For the T39, I'd use these handles at the top: http://www.speakerhardware.com/right_an ... 262820.php
And maybe put these on the bottom to help carry up stairs: http://www.speakerhardware.com/deep_d_h ... 262821.php

Of course, I'd add rubber feet along with the tilt-back casters to allow enough clearance for 'em, but would any of this effect the tone of the cab? (Assuming I can keep it airtight.)

The QSC power amp can be run in stereo, so that'll be fine... I just have to figure out what I can drop from my rack to open up space for a crossover. I figured I'd have 2 Speakon jacks on the T39 if I make it, one with a passive Xover, one without.

And if one O15 will be enough, then I'd make the TB version, but if I'd need more power, then I'd try to stack the regular version... It's just about how much power it'll take.

[David Carter]

It's just about how much power it'll take.

Actually, it's about how much noise it'll make. And it doesn't take a lot of power to make a whole lotta noise with these cabs!

[Cajun]

It's just about how much power it'll take.

Actually, it's about how much noise it'll make. And it doesn't take a lot of power to make a whole lotta noise with these cabs!

Right! I didn't mean I'd have to use 1600W through the BFM system (which wouldn't make much sense at all if I'm just using 2 cabs maximum)... I just meant how powerful the cab is and how much it'd take to become comparable to the 810... I guess. I know that more speakers equates with moving more air, and a lot more come into play than watts i.e. speaker sensitivity, Xmax, Vd, freq range, etc.

Would it be ridiculous to consider 2 12's in the T39 if it's 30" wide?

[bgavin]

You are much better off with two T39 than a 2x12.
30" is the upper end of the optimal range for 1x12. Wider is better, up to a point, and 30" is that point.

The typical 8x10 does not have a lot of bottom end.
A single T39/3012 produces about +10dB more SPL at 40 Hz.
You can pair the T39 with a single OT12 on top for a perfect SPL match.

If you require Flat-To-Forty EQ for the T39, you need a pair to keep up with the OT12.
One will do the job if you throttle back the OT12 a bit.

[Cajun]

You are much better off with two T39 than a 2x12.
30" is the upper end of the optimal range for 1x12. Wider is better, up to a point, and 30" is that point.

The typical 8x10 does not have a lot of bottom end.
A single T39/3012 produces about +10dB more SPL at 40 Hz.
You can pair the T39 with a single OT12 on top for a perfect SPL match.

If you require Flat-To-Forty EQ for the T39, you need a pair to keep up with the OT12.
One will do the job if you throttle back the OT12 a bit.

Awesome, thanks. What size T39's would you recommend for this? I considered making 2, but as a bassist and not someone bringing in a PA's worth of speakers, I figured the single T39 would probably be better. But if 2 smaller ones would work, then I might try that... Could I V them from the top, or would I have to lay them on their side? (Side by side Ving might just be too big for some of the stages I play on.) Oh, and as a side note, I have a ported 810, so it should give better lows (in theory) than the sealed 810 in the T39 30" vs 810 comparison. But just to get this straight: a 212 T39 wouldn't work? Do you mind explaining? Not that I question you, but I'm just curious about how all of this works... So please excuse my ignorance.

If I do well with the T39, then I'm thinking about replacing the O10 with a DR250, as I've heard from a few people that this is a winning combination for bass. Would that be an uneven SPL match, though?

Would a single O15 be comparable to all of this? Would 2? I'm sorry I'm asking so many newbie questions, haha. I'm trying to keep a cool head about this, but I'm just so damn excited about these speakers! I'm trying to figure out what would be a good replacement without ever having heard the speakers... It's a tough call.

[David Carter]

Sounds like you've already outgrown the O10 before it has even arrived on your doorstep! I completely understand the excitement. I've got it, too!

[Cajun]

Sounds like you've already outgrown the O10 before it has even arrived on your doorstep! I completely understand the excitement. I've got it, too!

Not so fast! Either way, I def plan on keeping the O10 for smaller gigs (or when I have PA support) or practice situations. The first thing I do when it gets here is sit down and compare it to the top 410 on the SWR. I think that'll clear up a lot of questions for me. If they're comparable, the 810 is gonna be on craigslist faster than you can say Bill Fitzmaurice.

[DJPhatman]

Sounds like you've already outgrown the O10 before it has even arrived on your doorstep! I completely understand the excitement. I've got it, too!

Not so fast! Either way, I def plan on keeping the O10 for smaller gigs (or when I have PA support) or practice situations. The first thing I do when it gets here is sit down and compare it to the top 410 on the SWR. I think that'll clear up a lot of questions for me. If they're comparable, the 810 is gonna be on craigslist faster than you can say Bill Fitzmaurice.

Just remember to listen to the cabs. What you will be hearing from the 410 and the 810 is mid-bass distortion, where as the O10 will give you clean, articulate mids. The O10 does not have big low end bottom ~50Hz or a little higher.

[bgavin]

Don't overlook the O15 (not O-top 15) for electric bass.
This gets you a full bottom, a lot of noise, and full range sound in a single box.

[Cajun]

Don't overlook the O15 (not O-top 15) for electric bass.
This gets you a full bottom, a lot of noise, and full range sound in a single box.

Would a single O15 be comparable to all of this? Would 2?

[Harley]

Would a single O15 be comparable to all of this? Would 2?

One O15 will seriously rattle your balls.....2 O15's and you're sterile!