Vet Fest Success!

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Tim A
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Vet Fest Success!

#1 Post by Tim A »

What a day. After a very rocky start weather-wise, things ended up going very well. Here's a thorough report of the day.

Starting at the beginning. The show was scheduled to start at 12:00 noon. I had a 45 minute drive and a show up time of 9:00 am. I figured my best bet was to get everything loaded the night before. Here are two pics of another good reason to love DR200's and T-39s. This is a Chevy Silverado, 6.5' bed and flush cap.

First row, 22" T-39 and 4 DR200's.

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Second row, 2-14" T39's and a few cases. The board goes on top of the Titans. You can see I'm just about halfway full at this point.

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After that was cases and racks. If I spent some time at it I could probably squeeze in another sub or another pair of 200's, but that'd be it. Any more and it'd be trailer city.

The weather forecast was for rain and severe storms all day. I had the general idea that it would get cancelled, and hoped that if that were the case it would happen before we set up. Got there at 8:45 and my helpers started arriving soon after. It was decided to go ahead with the setup and see how the weather looked. We were 10 minutes from having the PA complete when all hell broke loose. Thunder, lightning, the tornado siren was blowing, wind you name it. We just had enough time to get the amps, board and racks in the truck before we got nailed. No time to get the cabinets out of the weather.

And now, a word from our sponser:

Duratex is some bad-ass stuff. The cabinets stayed out in the storm just as you see them in the photo below. And it poured, non-stop for 1/2 hour and then rain after that for another hour. All I could do was set and watch them. Everyone thought I was nuts, but they went through it with no problem. When we tore down I had to drain the Titans! The DR's dried out nicely.

Ok, commercial over.

The rain stopped but the sky looked ugly. After waiting for another hour for the festival people to call the outdoor part or move it into a way too small tent, someone finally took charge. The stage was covered, poorly, so another canopy was brought in to put on the front of the stage. You cann see the pallets supporting it in the pic. By this time there were puddles on the stage itself. There is NO WAY I would've strapped on a guitar and stood on that stage. A couple of the bands had bailed at this point, so we could move the start time back and see if it dried out. My helpers and I found an old canopy, and using good old ingenuity had fastened it to the side of the canopy and down to the subs. That was one of the only areas that stayed dry during the storm, so that's where we put the amps.

Oddly enough, the weatherman was wrong. Go figure. The wind came up a bit and we had a few gusts, but overall the sky cleared up and the day turned out pretty well. We got through the first act, which was a miserable karaoke type thing with a guy singing (?) and a CD player. Great. The next act went well, an actual band. They weren't great but passable. The third act was a throw together last minute thing to fill in an empty slot, they were surprisingly good. After that the bands got progressively better. The last 3 were pro acts, one of which is a fairly large local name. I was worried about them being one of those nitpicky jerk bands that you couldn't please.

Ok, the system. Besides the cabs in the pics I had at my disposal a QSC RMX1450 for the subs, another one for monitors, and a Crown XLS620 for the tops. Three Wedgehorn, a pair of generic monitors and a Community 12" wedge. Interestingly, the Community was the worst sounding, heaviest, and lowest SPL of the bunch. As none of the acts required 6 monitors it and one of the generic models stayed in the truck.

The area was about 80-90 feet deep, and there was a nice semi-trailer directly infront of the stage on the far side. It made for a real mess, you got to hear everything twice. The biggest problem was the width of the area. It was about 150' wide, maybe more, and the band was all the way back in the corner away from the tent full of picnic tables, where everyone ended up sitting. It was so wide I had to rotate the neareest DR's to cover the area, something I've never had to do before. There was a big open area right in front of the stage, I guess they figured there'd be a lot of people out there, as did I. Not so. I put the subs on the left side of the stage away from the tent, an error. I should've put them on the opposite side of the stage. Only a few folks ventured into the open area, and most of them stayed off to the side toward the tent.

Since we got a late start and had to set up a second time, I decided to forego all the percussion mics except for the kick. Everything else was mic'd or lined in. Bass, acoustic guitar, electric guitars, keys, depending on the band. It turned out ok, the mics were able to pick up enough sound to get the drums in the mix. I almost added the snare mic later in the show, then figured ahh...screw it.

Overall the sound was good. The only complaint I got was from tammojsmit who said it sounded boxy. I can't agree 100%, but I do admit it sounded a bit flat. The problem was that stupid semi trailer. I tried to fix it early, but adding any reverb ended up as mush from the built-in echo.

One guy walked up to me and said: "Are those DR200's, or 250's?"

"um...who are you?

He introduced himself as a guy who lives in Florida and has built Omni15's. He lurks around the forum (He promised to join!) and heard the setup would be there, since he was in the area visiting he came out. Nice to meet you, hopefully you'll join the group!

I was pretty happy with the way the system sounded and the amount of volume they put out in such a large open area. It is still surpising to me that 4-8" drivers can do what they did. Plenty of volume for the area and event, although the bass started to drop off about 45-50' from the stage. Still not bad for 2-14" and 1-22" T-39's limited to 180w each! I would've liked to have one more sub and two more tops just to keep the amps from working too hard, but we had no problems, no technical issues. Like I said in the other thread, just kick back and run the sound.

Comments from the bands? Here are some direct quotes:

"Have you got a card?"
"I can't believe this is outside. I can hear everything on-stage, unbelievable. Have you got a card?"
"This sounds like a CD. I've never heard a mix that clear, especially outside. Have you got a card?"
"How do you get the vocals so clear and out front? Have you got a card?"
"This is great. I love the bass. I can hear everything I'm playing without all the boominess I usually hear. Have you got a card?"

I could go on. I handed out a shitload of cards. Some of them asked about the cabinets, looking at them and saying What the hell is that?" I explained the system and told them the cabinets are the reason for the mix, not me. They make it sound like I know what I'm doing. None of them complained about anything, not once. I asked each band after their first song if they could hear themselves, no problems.

So, a very succesful day for yours truly. I'm thrilled with the fact I was able to help the veteran's out at this event. I'm also very happy with the way my interests as a builder and half-assed sound company were represented, as well as BF cabs. There are a whole new group of believers in these parts.

Last shot, a view from the board. You can see all of the after the fact rain protection. Ugly, but effective!

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James R
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#2 Post by James R »

Tim great to hear that it went well, it's raining here in Upstate ,NY now. I just came in from the shed finishing up the last 2 of 4 T48's, reading your review
has got me excited for an upcoming show :D

Jim
" Everyone Has a Photographic Memory, Just Not Everyone Has Film In The Camera"


4 x T48 24.5" 3015LF
8 x 112 Otops


NEXT 2 x DR280's

Sydney

Re: Vet Fest Success!

#3 Post by Sydney »

Overall the sound was good. The only complaint I got was from tammojsmit who said it sounded boxy.
It sounds like that slapback was the biggest problem. It's too bad that organizers aren't savvy enough to know NOT to place sound systems perpendicular to flat surfaces & vice versa.
The rain element makes me ponder the various approaches to protecting cabs: From the simple canvas or plastic bags that I 've seen NBC crews use, to the custom made vinyl covers like Nimrod has.
The "Florida Guy": what was his take on the sound?
If you don't mind my asking: Was the request for cards for you building cabs or running sound or both?
Congrats

Ron K
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#4 Post by Ron K »

For rain protection we simply use the old blue tarps and some bungees.Keep em in a case in the back of the truck and make sure you have enough to cover everything.This allows us to continue rain or shine and collect the money no matter what. At the first sign of lightening the system goes down and the check gets written. It does not come back on line till 20mins of a zero lightening period has passed.

Having enough to quickly cover the whole stage in the event of a downpour will keep you on good terms with the band thats playing or even the promoter.Protect your gear at all costs! If the weather report for the day calls for a 30% or more chance of rain we'll usually lay the tarps out for quick deployment.
Ever since I replaced sex with food I cant even get into my own pants!

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Tim A
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#5 Post by Tim A »

Sydney wrote: The rain element makes me ponder the various approaches to protecting cabs: From the simple canvas or plastic bags that I 've seen NBC crews use, to the custom made vinyl covers like Nimrod has.
It was pretty dark when we tore down last night, and I had no idea what to expect this morning. The bottom 14" T39 got it the worst. Here's are pics of the back/side and front, before and after. This cleanup took less than 5 minutes, I just wiped it down with a wet rag and let dry. As a result, I'm no longer going to worry about rain protection. The next time someone says Duratex is expensive, show them this!
Image

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Sydney wrote: The "Florida Guy": what was his take on the sound?
He seemed pretty pleased. His considering OTop 12's for his own system ans said he hoped they came close to the 200's sound-wise. He also seemed surprised at the amount of sound coming out of the 200's. He did say the mix for all the bands sounded good. Hopefully he'll join the forum and give us his take first hand.
Sydney wrote: If you don't mind my asking: Was the request for cards for you building cabs or running sound or both?
I think mostly sound although one guy seemed like he was interested in cabs.

Good points Ron. I did have a tarp and straps with me for the board, but I was told this was going to be in a big tent, the band, me and the audience. Although he tried, he couldn't get any of the tent rental places to help him out so he had to proceed differently. Unfortunately he neglected to let me know. That's on me though, I should know better and plan for the worst.

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Harley
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#6 Post by Harley »

Tim!

Fantastic review and fantastic result.

You have no idea the motivation this has given me. :D :D

This thread will be a reference point for me to direct my prospects to!

Cheers

Harley
ImageSemi-retired: Former Australia and New Zealand Authorised BFM cab builder.

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Tom Smit
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#7 Post by Tom Smit »

Overall the sound was good. The only complaint I got was from tammojsmit who said it sounded boxy.
Yikes!! Suddenly I feel like a bad guy :oops: . My comment was an initial observance, but, like the other comments, the sound was clean, and well mixed, and it grew on me. My mind is made up.....from Tim's and DJPhatman's comment during a test awhile ago, and from finally hearing them, I will want to produce at least 4 of the DR200s if the need ever arises.

Kudos to Tim

I wish I could have stayed until the other bands were there, but time was not on my side, so that I could further enjoy.

TomS
TomS

Ron K
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#8 Post by Ron K »

Tom I dont think Tim meant it to make you out as the bad guy.I took it as he knew he had a problem and there wasn't much he could do about it. In fact judging from most of Tims responses on these forums I think he welcomes a critical response good or bad as long as it's coming from a credible source.That's all part of getting better at this game.

My hats off to guys who have the fortitude to continue on even when they know the deck is stacked against them.As far as jobs go (rain, bad acoustics and some poor talent ) thats about a s crappy a situation as you can get in.You just forge on and make due with what you have to work with.If you're getting compliments after a day like that I'd call it a decent day and a good learning experience!

If you make it home with your gear in tact and don't owe any money I call it a great day! :D

I'm sure a good time was had by all even with the rain.
Ever since I replaced sex with food I cant even get into my own pants!

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Tim A
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#9 Post by Tim A »

tammojsmit wrote: Yikes!! Suddenly I feel like a bad guy
Don't. Your observation was correct, even though we may have used different terms. There's no doubt in my mind it was a bit lifeless. In fact, your stating it confirmed what I was hearing. At least I know I wasn't imagining things!

I think too, that we and others like us listen with a more critical ear. We hear things that the unwashed masses don't. The problem was minor overall, and I doubt anyone else heard it with the possible exception of some of the musos that were there.

moo
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#10 Post by moo »

Tim A wrote: Comments from the bands? Here are some direct quotes:

"Have you got a card?"
"I can't believe this is outside. I can hear everything on-stage, unbelievable. Have you got a card?"
"This sounds like a CD. I've never heard a mix that clear, especially outside. Have you got a card?"
"How do you get the vocals so clear and out front? Have you got a card?"
I used my DR200s at a carnival with 6 bands yesterday, and had similar reactions from chatting to bands waiting to play. I gave out cards and got promises of more work from 3 of the bands. The other bands were all youth bands. With a bit more experience they will realise that the quality of sound they got yesterday is a very rare thing...
I live the smell of birch ply in the mornings... Smells like... Victory!

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Bryan316
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#11 Post by Bryan316 »

You know, Tim, after reading all this, I can only kick myself for not braving the weather and just heading out after around 1:30pm. Shoulda. Just shoulda.

It's really good to see your Duratex shed the rain like a duck's back! Very very cool. Proves that if you plan ahead, your gear CAN be ready for anything. Those Yamaha's I bought, their rat fur is getting stripped ASAP!

I also noticed something about your T39's. Their input jack plates. They're upside down! There's no way in heck (translate: Michigan weather!) those connections would get any water on them! Very wise way to build your cabs. And I'll have no shame in admitting that I'll go upgrade ALL my cabs with that style of plates. It's an excellent idea to guarantee water doesn't leak UP into your jacks. Keeps you from getting electrofried and that's a bonus no matter how you slice it.

I'm also very suprised by your photos, how high up you elevated your DR200's. It seems like overkill to be that high up, BUT you have your top cabs angled, so they project out to the back of the crowd, yet down towards the front of the crowd as well. Very nicely assembled. I'm interested though, whether the two cabs crossing each other would get cancellations or hot spots, or are those so close to the cabs nobody would even catch them? Or is it because of the BF design, horns don't have crossing problems?

Shouldn't have been chicken, shoulda just came out anyways. Oh well... my failure.

Cool to hear the show prevailed. \m/

WB
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#12 Post by WB »

Bryan316 wrote: I also noticed something about your T39's. Their input jack plates. They're upside down!
Actually, they're correct. The other way would cause undue stress on the plug and jack.
Tomorrow I'm going to stop procrastinating - WB

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Tim A
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#13 Post by Tim A »

Bryan316 wrote: I also noticed something about your T39's. Their input jack plates. They're upside down! There's no way in heck (translate: Michigan weather!) those connections would get any water on them! Very wise way to build your cabs. And I'll have no shame in admitting that I'll go upgrade ALL my cabs with that style of plates. It's an excellent idea to guarantee water doesn't leak UP into your jacks. Keeps you from getting electrofried and that's a bonus no matter how you slice it.
They were laying on their sides during the show, so they weren't upside down. But being recessed helps a lot. That plate is my standard for all subs now, mine or a customer's.

Bryan316 wrote: I'm also very suprised by your photos, how high up you elevated your DR200's. It seems like overkill to be that high up, BUT you have your top cabs angled, so they project out to the back of the crowd, yet down towards the front of the crowd as well. Very nicely assembled. I'm interested though, whether the two cabs crossing each other would get cancellations or hot spots, or are those so close to the cabs nobody would even catch them? Or is it because of the BF design, horns don't have crossing problems?
They're not high at all, in fact, the stands weren't even extended. The bottom of the lower cabinet is about 5.5' high. That is a minimum for safety when the audience is close (something we were anticipating but never happened due to the weather and the added canopy in front of the stage). The SPL coming out of those peizo banks can damage hearing in short order. You always want to keep your horns above the close audience's heads. Lower is ok for greater distance, but at the same time if you're not projecting the highs over the close audience, then the audience farther back isn't hearing them.

There are a couple things working here. First, I build my DR's with a 6 degree down angle in the stand socket. The vertical dispersion is very narrow due to the line array effect of the tweeters. If you set the cabinets straight at a safe height as described above, anyone within 15' sitting at a table won't hear any highs. The 6 degree angle in the pole socket lets me get them high enough for safety and still angle them so the front audience can hear.

As for the 'crossfire', they're not. DR's have a 3 degree splay on the cabinet top and bottom as part of the horn design and to provide the ability to use them as a J array. The space in the back is simply the distance between those angles. The face of the cabinets are virtually on plane with each other, the top one is tilted down very, very slightly to keep the sound out of the trees.

When the cabs are stacked like that they are a short line array, about 1 meter. Not much help in the mids, but by the time you get to about 3kHz there is some nearfield advantage out to 35-40'. As such, the tweeters aren't creating hot spots, nulls, or combing, they're coupled together and operating as one.

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Bryan316
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#14 Post by Bryan316 »

Hmph. I really need to study more on the concept of line arrays.

Okay, so your dishes, they kinda look like the Dayton MD132's? I assume you run Speakons simply for the safety factors, right?

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Tim A
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Re: Vet Fest Success!

#15 Post by Tim A »

Bryan316 wrote:Hmph. I really need to study more on the concept of line arrays.

Okay, so your dishes, they kinda look like the Dayton MD132's? I assume you run Speakons simply for the safety factors, right?
Not sure what the number is, I get them through Leland. PE has them listed.

I use Speakons because while 1/4" phone jacks are great for switchboards, they have no place in the world of PA. Unfortunately I'm stuck with them on my monitors due to our small gig system. Eventually I'll change them all over.

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