Hello everyone! Ready to give me your input?

[REDLINE]

Here's a chart comparing the Tuba 30 and Titan 39.



Wider will give you better response, but you have to take into consideration pack space, moving, setup, etc. They're both about 8 cu ft. in this example. The Tuba gives better low end extension, the Titan has better response in the power band. The Titan would be much easier to move with casters and a handle.

The Tuba 24 is a great little sub, but it has a purpose. It's designed for small setups and people with little pack space. In thise case smaller also means a much shorter horn. Don't go any smaller than the T-30 or T-39, adjust the width to suit your needs. The cabs all stay the same height and depth, the only thing that changes is the width.

The JBL costs more because it says JBL on it. Stick with the recommended drivers.

Driver cost has little to do with performance. A 14-20" wide Titan 39 loaded with a BP102 will give you excellent performance in a very small package. The cabinet is only going to give you what it will give you dB-wise and you'll reach a point of diminishing returns on power handling. The truth is, if you need more volume, you add more cabinets. You also must take into consideration power compression. It's not uncommon for a 500w driver to stop getting louder at around 250w. Any power you add after that is only causing more heat to the voice coil.

That's an awesome chart, I didn't notice it before. Looking at that, it also makes me realize that I probably don't need a Tuba. Every single sub I was looking at only goes down to about 30/35 Hz anyway. I mean, am I really going to miss the 30-36 Hz range which appears the be the only place the Tubas excel? The speakers I have now only go down to about 55 Hz, and the bass sounds great, it's just not loud enough. I mean, I really love super loud and deep bass, but if you tell me i'm not going to miss that 30-36 Hz range, then I think i've made up my mind on the Titan 39. So I took apart the box of that Titan 48 I built, and turned it into a 20 in wide Titan 39, and it looks really nice. I think I might want to trim it down a little bit, maybe 18 in, but it is definitely a perfectly sized sub.

So I guess I can sum everything up. I thought about it long and hard, and slapped myself for being such an idiot before. I'm a mobile DJ, and I really want to be mobile. So a 16 in wide Tuba 30 is the only Tuba I could build since 16 in is the minimum, or a 20 in wide Titan 39 is my max for a Titan. Anything bigger is pretty much out of the question, and I think four of either of those puppies would be more than enough bass for a prom or homecoming. Two would be great for a medium sized house party, and one would be perfect for something smaller.

[Sydney]

And here is the a stack of T39's

And a stack of T30's


These numbers can be numbing until you put them into a context. If you look at a similar graph of the S115V you will see that for 1 watt of power in:
1 S115V gets 96+ from 70 to 100Hz and increases to rated.
As Tim pointed out the T39 is louder the T30 goes lower ( a compromise ).
If you were to listen to a speaker outdoors at a fixed distance ( say 3.26ft ) and then move in half way (1.62ft ) the sound would be 6db louder - the same amount as you get for doubling your cab count for the same power in.
For fun go to:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html
Bill has stated in his articles: These are meant to be used in multiples - this is why
The wt. of a S115V is 60lbs - about the same as my T24 or a T39(?) - T30?
The dimension width and depth are within an inch or so of a T39 ( height difference ).
Re: I half agree w Tim (IAGA) JBL drivers could be cheaper, they make consumer dreck - But they make well engineered pro drivers.
If I could get 2206 as cheap as the a similar Eminence...
There is a clone of a 2206 that has gotten good reports - don't quote me but I think you could get 4 of these drivers for $350 -$ 400.
Could make a nice set of T30's

[Mark Coward]

Oh I also forgot to ask about drivers. Now I plan on paying about $200 per driver for each of the subs. So am I really worrying too much about which cabinet size is most efficient? And since I plan on getting really powerful drivers, would like oh say four 16 in wide Tuba 30s (with powerful drivers) be able to handle a big homecoming or prom? And why is a driver like the JBL about $100 more than a Definimax that seems to be exactly the same?

You need to use the recommended drivers, or something very close in T/S spec. So far we have seen nothing that will outperform the Eminence drivers recommended in the plans, no matter how much you pay for them. For a T30 or T39, the Definimax 4012 is the most heavy duty option. It will handle more power but you won't get a huge amount of increased SPL. Doubling the power is a 2db increase, while 6db is what is generally perceived as sounding twice as loud. Therefore, you'd need 800w to get twice as loud as 100w.

The T39 in 14" - 20" width loaded with BP102's is the most cost and size effective combo IMO. You'll get much more output by adding more boxes than by installing higher powered drivers.

[REDLINE]

Oh I also forgot to ask about drivers. Now I plan on paying about $200 per driver for each of the subs. So am I really worrying too much about which cabinet size is most efficient? And since I plan on getting really powerful drivers, would like oh say four 16 in wide Tuba 30s (with powerful drivers) be able to handle a big homecoming or prom? And why is a driver like the JBL about $100 more than a Definimax that seems to be exactly the same?

You need to use the recommended drivers, or something very close in T/S spec. So far we have seen nothing that will outperform the Eminence drivers recommended in the plans, no matter how much you pay for them. For a T30 or T39, the Definimax 4012 is the most heavy duty option. It will handle more power but you won't get a huge amount of increased SPL. Doubling the power is a 2db increase, while 6db is what is generally perceived as sounding twice as loud. Therefore, you'd need 800w to get twice as loud as 100w.

The T39 in 14" - 20" width loaded with BP102's is the most cost and size effective combo IMO. You'll get much more output by adding more boxes than by installing higher powered drivers.

Yes that is quite sad. Being mobile and all, i'd rather be able to get a higher SPL from better drivers and not more units. You make it seem like it wouldn't even be worth it to consider the 4012. I thought I was going to have to decide between that and the Delta 12LF, but now you're making it sound like I should probably go with the S2010. Did anyone make any SPL charts comparing different drivers for the same exact cabinet?



Also, looking at Tim's chart and this one, it appears that the increase in width from 14 in to 18 in to 20 in makes a really big difference in the 40-60 Hz range, which is where the deep bass comes from, correct? It almost seems like i'd be wasting volume if I didn't make the 20 in wide Titan 39.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

You make it seem like it wouldn't even be worth it to consider the 4012..

Not at all, but at full power the 4012 will have only 2dB or so more output than a 2012, wheras two cabs loaded with 2012s will have 6dB more output than one with no additional power. If you absolutely must have the highest possible output per cab by all means use the 4012, but for the same price you can get a pair of 2012 loaded cabs that will work much better, if you have the transportation to carry them. The best way to get big bass is not to use expensive drivers in small boxes, it's using inexpensive drivers in big boxes.

[Tim A]

Yes that is quite sad. Being mobile and all, i'd rather be able to get a higher SPL from better drivers and not more units.

It's not sad, it's physics. And it's exactly the same for all cabs, regardless of the drivel most manufacturers put out to the publisc.

but now you're making it sound like I should probably go with the S2010.

The S2010 is the recommended driver for stacks. For 2-4 cabs, use the BP102

Did anyone make any SPL charts comparing different drivers for the same exact cabinet?

There is no chart for the BP102. It will exibit a 1-2dB dip from about 45-60Hz, but the added power and Xmax make up for it.

Also, looking at Tim's chart and this one, it appears that the increase in width from 14 in to 18 in to 20 in makes a really big difference in the 40-60 Hz range, which is where the deep bass comes from, correct? It almost seems like i'd be wasting volume if I didn't make the 20 in wide Titan 39.

Yup, but then again 2 14" T-39's will walk all over the single 20". You almost have to think of this as a changing, fluid thing instead of either/or. You need to choose the best sub and width from your intended use, taking into account pack space, storage space, setup space, volume, venue size, etc. One of the very best things about these cabinets is the modular aspect.

[REDLINE]

Well before I pretty much decide on a driver, do you guys feel I made the right decision leaning towards the Titan instead of the Tuba? That was the most important question I had, because I don't think i've ever really heard bass that the Tuba can offer, so therefore I don't respect it. It seems the range of the Titan comes pretty close to the range of commercial subs, and that's why i'm leaning in that direction, but if you tell me that I would be blown away by the deep sound of the Tuba, then it would make it a much harder decision. In the end, it just seemed more logical to pick the Titan, because it still goes pretty low, but packs way more power. And when space is limited and i'm playing in a big banquet hall or gymnasium, it seems more power is more valuable than deeper bass.

[LelandCrooks]

And when space is limited and i'm playing in a big banquet hall or gymnasium, it seems more power is more valuable than deeper bass.

+1
The answer is right there. Titans. Really only the trance guys and electronica need anything below 30-35. The 40-80 range where the titans absolutely kick ass is where the action is.

[Tim A]

Well, this isn't going to help, but I think you'd be blown away and quite satisfied by either one.

SoundInMotion uses 14" T-39's for DJ work and he's been more than satisfied.

[Mikey]

I plan on paying about $200 per driver for each of the subs

If you want more sensitivity, max output, and power handling, the Eminence HL10C driver might be a consideration for you.


BP102 & HL10C:

Covering gymnasiums and other large areas, the extra performance and power handling of the HL10C might be worth the investment.

Per the plans: "Do not build a single HL10c version wider than 14 inches, or a dual HL10c version wider than 24 inches, as sensitivity will not improve and response is rougher." So, that takes the guess-work out of deciding on cab size, and they happen to be the right size for you.

Parts Express sells the HL10C for $129.97 with free shipping (considerably less than your $200 allotment per driver).

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=290-574

Just thought I'd mention this option, as nobody else had brought it up yet.

[REDLINE]

And when space is limited and i'm playing in a big banquet hall or gymnasium, it seems more power is more valuable than deeper bass.

+1
The answer is right there. Titans. Really only the trance guys and electronica need anything below 30-35. The 40-80 range where the titans absolutely kick ass is where the action is.

Well I actually really like electronica, and I do play a fair amount. I also play lots of the latest rap as well. Both have a huge amount of bass, but I don't think any of the most current music goes below 40 Hz in the first place, unless of course I just don't know cause i've never had anything capable of it.

[REDLINE]

I plan on paying about $200 per driver for each of the subs

If you want more sensitivity, max output, and power handling, the Eminence HL10C driver might be a consideration for you.


BP102 & HL10C:

Covering gymnasiums and other large areas, the extra performance and power handling of the HL10C might be worth the investment.

Per the plans: "Do not build a single HL10c version wider than 14 inches, or a dual HL10c version wider than 24 inches, as sensitivity will not improve and response is rougher." So, that takes the guess-work out of deciding on cab size, and they happen to be the right size for you.

Parts Express sells the HL10C for $129.97 with free shipping (considerably less than your $200 allotment per driver).

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl ... er=290-574

Just thought I'd mention this option, as nobody else had brought it up yet.

That's really great information and 14 in width sounds awesome, except there are two things that really don't work with that driver. First, I want an 8 Ohm driver. I really think wiring two in series would be a waste because the performance increase wouldn't be that great, and I was liking the idea of using a 250-500W amp instead of a 600W, which would also save money and use a lot less power. Secondly, it looks like that driver is actually weaker around 40 Hz than the S2010, which isn't that big a deal, but if i'm paying more, I would be expecting at least the same performance if not better in the 40 Hz range.

[SoundInMotionDJ]

SoundInMotion uses 14" T-39's for DJ work and he's been more than satisfied.

Yes I do, and yes I am.

I agonized for almost 6 months about what to build. I thought about T30's, and single -v- dual drivers, and widths, etc, etc, etc. I was making myself nuts. In the end, I built the cabinet that was easiest to pack in the largest quantity that I could afford/pack/store.

The best thing I ever did for my sound system was to read, re-read, re-re-read, re-re-re-read the sub placement post until I could recite it from memory:

http://billfitzmaurice.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=398

As I said in my first post to this thread...until you can prove (with an RTA) that you need the low end extension, sensitivity should drive your choice. Especially when the target room is a gym with hard walls, and high ceilings.

There is very little advantage to a dual driver T39, since two single driver cabinets with the same total width will perform the same, and be more portable. That does not count the "free" 3dB you will gain by V-plating a pair of cabinets.

It seems really hard to give up the "free" SPL in the 40-60Hz range by going narrower than 20". But, keep in mind what you are gaining compared to a conventional design:


--Stan Graves

[SoundInMotionDJ]

First, I want an 8 Ohm driver. I really think wiring two in series would be a waste because the performance increase wouldn't be that great, and I was liking the idea of using a 250-500W amp instead of a 600W, which would also save money and use a lot less power.

For 204 cabinets, the BP102 is a really awesome choice for the T39. I have eight boxes, and there is no shortage of chest thumping bass.

Secondly, it looks like that driver is actually weaker around 40 Hz than the S2010, which isn't that big a deal, but if i'm paying more, I would be expecting at least the same performance if not better in the 40 Hz range.

The HL10c is a beast of a driver, and will *easily* make up that little dip at 40Hz. Keep in mind that over the rest of the range, the HL10c wins easily.

But, the HL10c is $$$, and *heavy*.

Also, don't obsess over little bumps and dips in the charts...if you can make it up with < 3dB of EQ...no worries.

--Stan Graves

[Mikey]

I want an 8 Ohm driver. I really think wiring two in series would be a waste because the performance increase wouldn't be that great, and I was liking the idea of using a 250-500W amp instead of a 600W, which would also save money and use a lot less power.

You're not taking the added impedence of the horns into consideration. For the T39, you would normally add 2 ohms for the horn, per driver. So, an 8 ohm driver in a T39 would have a total impedence of 10 ohms. Two, in parallel, would be 5 ohms. HOWEVER, the HL10C is a little different ... you add 3 ohms for the horn. From the T39 plans:

When using the 4 ohm rated HL10c a single driver T39 has a nominal impedance of 7 ohms, dual drivers parallel wired 3.5 ohms.

So, whether you have two singles or one double on each side of an amp, you'll have 3.5 ohms per side. By comparison, two BP102s in T39s (per side) would be 5 ohms on each side of an amp.

Just because a driver has the capability of handling more power does not mean that you MUST have more power to drive it. You can use the same amp to power HL10Cs that you would use for BP102s. Also, given that HL10Cs would present a lower impedence to the amp than BP102s (3.5 ohms per side versus 5 ohms), the HL10Cs will draw a bit more power from any amp used. However, I'd recommend that you use an amp which will deliver at least 200w per driver, whether you use the BP102 or the HL10C. Although I understand that weight and power consumption are issues, so is headroom.

Secondly, it looks like that driver is actually weaker around 40 Hz than the S2010, which isn't that big a deal, but if i'm paying more, I would be expecting at least the same performance if not better in the 40 Hz range

Here are the charts:


Four 14"w S2010-loaded T39s are at 105db at 40hz. The 22"w HL10C dually is at 100db at 40hz ... add 6db for the second cab and it'll be at 106db at 40hz. By 45hz, the HL10Cs clearly pull ahead. Also, these are 2.83v charts ... once you take into account the Xmax and added power handling of the HL10Cs, they win, hands down.

Lastly, scroll up and look at the physical difference between these drivers. If you were trying to fill a gymnasium with good bass, pushing your system pretty hard, which driver would you rather know is in your cabs as you're pushing that volume slider further up?