tuba36 vs t39...

[mullett]

Good mornig veryone.

Always seems like a lot of questions concerning the difference about titan and tubas. Ill add my few cents of oppinion(as colored as it may be)

Quick reveiw
I play with a praise rock bank Me, my 18 year old son and another guy about half way between us in age. We have quite a differnce in styles of music that we like like, and that brings a differnt sound to music that we play. We tend to play in a lot of either small long rooms or Gyms(they are the worst for uncrontrolled sound). When I first started playing with Mr Fitmaurices plans I had already had experience with some folded horn enclosures in the past. they just seam to over the years drop away from the pro audio scene. I can understand the reasons why but thats a whole different story..Back to the reveiw
The first cabinets that we built were the tuba 36. I really like the extended low frequency that the were projected to have. Although hauling 4 of them is a very LARGE job. Afetr some time I decided to do a t39 and give it a try. About the cabinets:
The Tuba 36's that we built are 24" wide with 1 15" woofer in each. The woofer being used is one that I put together with specs as close to the recommended parameters as possible. As an Eminence dealer I have access to all of the recommended drivers but also have ability to build and some of my own.
the T39's are 18" wide version. I built at this width for the possibility to use a 10" in its wide width with extended bottom end or a 12" with higher output and smaller cabinet. We tried the recommended Eminence woofer and compared to one of our stock woofers that had like specs. We ended up, after much listning, using our like woofer. It seemed to have a more transient response than the Eminence.
After setting up our system thursday night for a service last night we turned it on.

I used 2 of the big tuba36 clustered in the corner. running 1 channel of a Crest cc4000 amp amd limiting the signal thru the drive rack pa. The amp has quite a lot more power than I feel comfortable turning loose on the two speakers.

The tubas were quite loud as they always are. But also seem to always lack the punch that I would like to achive from the kick drum.

I then compare the the 1 t39 at lower spl ranges to the tubas. I was quite impressed that the 1 t39 had the a similar output to the 2 tuba36. The output also seemed to be more of the kick that I have been searching for. Keep in mind that I was still limiting the signal and only changed the subs to compare....Did not re-eq or change any pre amp gain structures. I never expected them to be even close.


The big difference between the two cabinets also becomes apperent when playing soundtracks for other performers. often times we use our system to play tracks that are pre recorded for other singer songwriters. The tubas have always really shined and performed beyond expectations in this use. They have the ability to play very extended in the low frequency. They always have a very distinct and clean sound. When used in the larger rooms The 4 pack that we have will always produce more bass than our high end will keep up with. We end up only using an amp that puts about 100watts into each of the four cabs and that becomes more than enough.

The T39 having the increased output does also lack the extended depth of the tubas. This only becomes apperent when the titans are really scrutinized by someone who really pays attention, on recorded music. For the masses it will not be very obvious.

I guess the big thing here is that I have read alot of post for the difference from the Titans and the Tubas. The recommendation Has usually been Tubas for recorde music and Titans for live music. With the experience that I have had now with the two, I belive that this is correct. The tubas out perform the titans for recorded but the titans outperform the Tubas for live.

I am looking forward to building more of the Titans. I can carry 8 of the t39 and will pack in little more space that the 4 tuba 36's that we are used to carrying for the larger rooms.
I then need to tackle my high end to get enough to keep up with that kind of bass.(wow....I cant wait)

Bill your designs rock, keep up the good work.
Thank you for your efforts.
Thanks to all who have posted over the last year or so I have learned a tremendous amount from this forum and the knowledge of the people here.
God give us music to enjoy, and enjoy it we should.....

[ben.in.salzburg]

Great review - I often wonder how many of us have built the T36, the mother of subwoofers, only to desire something smaller and handier... On the other hand, have you ever been hit by a pair of V-coupled 30" T36?

You say:
'As an Eminence dealer I have access to all of the recommended drivers but also have ability to build and some of my own'

Soon you will be bombarded with requests for drivers with even better Vas, Xmax, Spl.... etc. Maybe you could do for BFM builders their own custom equivalent, and nemesis for the LAB 12?

My request: 3015LF with 50mm Xmax

Take care, Ben

[gdougherty]

My request: 3015LF with 50mm Xmax
Take care, Ben

I believe Bill's statement on Xmax was that horn pressure will likely shred anything with too high an xmax, so you're back to if you need more output, build more cabs.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

My request: 3015LF with 50mm Xmax
Take care, Ben

I believe Bill's statement on Xmax was that horn pressure will likely shred anything with too high an xmax, so you're back to if you need more output, build more cabs.

When you factor in power compression and so forth being able to put more than 500 watts into a driver is kind of like Dolly Parton's chest: interesting to contemplate, but even if you had it you couldn't actually make use of it. Since a fifteen in a T36 or T48 with 10mm xmax will take 500 watts anything more is of no value.

[Strapping Young Stu]

My request: 3015LF with 50mm Xmax
Take care, Ben

I believe Bill's statement on Xmax was that horn pressure will likely shred anything with too high an xmax, so you're back to if you need more output, build more cabs.

When you factor in power compression and so forth being able to put more than 500 watts into a driver is kind of like Dolly Parton's chest: interesting to contemplate, but even if you had it you couldn't actually make use of it. Since a fifteen in a T36 or T48 with 10mm xmax will take 500 watts anything more is of no value.

Doesnt a high Xmax yield the greatest benefit for the bottom octave of the horn design where the driver is starting to work less in horn loaded mode and more in sealed box mode? The more Xmax you have the more boost you can use to flatten off the response in the low end?

Stu

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Doesnt a high Xmax yield the greatest benefit for the bottom octave of the horn design where the driver is starting to work less in horn loaded mode and more in sealed box mode? The more Xmax you have the more boost you can use to flatten off the response in the low end?

Stu

All speakers have maximum excursion at the lower end of their passband, not just horns. What's in question here is how much xmax is required of a fifteen in a T36 or T48 to run at 500 watts without exceeding xmax within the passband. 10mm is sufficient.

[mullett]

While testing our tubas I foud that I agree with Bill. What I found is that the increased Xmax did not gain nearly as much as one would think. I would have thought A longer coil and possibly larger wire for the coil(which possibly could give higher thermal limitsz) would give more output than it did. Not so. Just by listning without a lot of high tech mesuring(we are pretty low tech around hear) The best way to gain is to add more enclosures. series wire configure if necessary. The horns are very efficeint for lower power and work real well. Big power only necessary for the headroom. No need to work the amps hard, or try to fill the grand canyon with sound with one speaker.

Will be testing against some Mach dual 18 cabs real soon.
All is good today tommorow and yesterday.....

[Dave Non-Zero]

if we are talking dream speakers i think the one everyone is waitng for is a neo 12 with 10mm xmax. Build me a few of those!!!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

if we are talking dream speakers i think the one everyone is waitng for is a neo 12 with 10mm xmax. Build me a few of those!!!

The 3012LF will probably be in that ballpark, but release date is not anticipated for another 10 months.

[Dave Non-Zero]

dammit that was the info i was wanting but not the content. I want to build some dual t48s but i really dont want 2 4012s in them. I wonder if the bolt holes will be the same as the deltalite 12s, then i could get some of them first, then swap them out into more dr280s?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

I wonder if the bolt holes will be the same as the deltalite 12s, then i could get some of them first, then swap them out into more dr280s?

No way of knowing, but don't count on it. I last spoke with the head of R&D at Eminence 2 weeks ago, and right now they're finalizing the details of the 3012 frames, so it's not a rehashed Deltalite, it's a totally new driver. I have samples of the new Delta Pro 8s and those frames also are totally new, unlike anything else in their lineup. They're reminiscent of the old JBL and EV frames, very heavy duty.

[Dave Non-Zero]

so it's not a rehashed Deltalite, it's a totally new driver. I have samples of the new Delta Pro 8s and those frames also are totally new, unlike anything else in their lineup. They're reminiscent of the old JBL and EV frames, very heavy duty.

All well and good, but seriously, how difficult can it be to drill the mounting holes in the same pattern as their other speakers!
Come on guys! one less teabreak per day and get busy!

[Mark Coward]

The HL10 is the only Eminence driver I've had that used a different bolt pattern. All other 10's, 12's, and 15's that I've used from different manufacturers were the same.

[bgavin]

A common bolt pattern is a good thing. I recently dropped a JBL M-151 into an ancient combo that had a destroyed no-name 15 in place. The JBL bolt pattern was a perfect fit, and so was the outer diameter in the counter-routed baffle. As luck would have it, the JBL was also an optimal match for that cabinet.

I have a T30S vertical baffle that I created specifically for the Definimax 4012HO. It would be nice indeed, if other 12s will fit that bolt pattern. This was my 2nd build, and I used too much driver. It would do just as well with a 12LF or other less pricey 12" driver.

[Dave Non-Zero]

I know that dave perry had difficulty swapping the B&C drivers in his dr280s to Deltalite 12s. i believe the beta 10 and deltalite10 are slightly different too.