DR200 + T39

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SoundInMotionDJ
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DR200 + T39

#1 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

Over last weekend, I performed at the first large gig with my new BFD system. The main room was in use for more than 45 hours over three days! That is a typical load for these events...so a system that is "coasting" rather than "struggling" to keep up is very important.

This is the third year that I provided sound for this same event. Last year the system in the main room was four Klipsch KP-3002's, and two KP-480's on the main floor, with some additional side fills (either Yamaha S115-IV's, or Peavey SP-5's). This system "required" a BBE to sound good.

The BFD system is 8 DR200's, and 8 T39's @ 14" BP102 loaded. I have a DEQ2496 and DCX2496 to manage the system. I was using EP2500 amps for the DR's - two cabinets per channel, and CS-800's for the T39's - three cabinets on one channel (I did not have the right combination of patch cables to use both channels).

The ballroom is 215ft wide, by 80ft deep, by 22ft high. The main dance floor was 64ft x 40ft and centered in the room. There were two side dance floors for additional room. The subs were in two stacks of four on either side of the floor. I was not able to wall load the subs. I have not yet made a V-plate.

The DRs were spread for coverage. On either side of the floor, I stacked one X-fire and one straight-fire on a stand. I split two tops on the stage at 1/3 intervals. The remaining two tops were for fill to the sides of the room.

I set the X-over to about 100Hz. That is a little low for a single DR, but because the tops were providing fill, I wanted them to be as low as practical. To my ear, it the DRs were able to handle 100Hz as part of the total mix.

I setup the DEQ/DCX to limit the signal to the amps in my garage. I set the limiter so that the max voltage would be 30v. I used a 1kHz signal to do this. At the event, I used the RTA mic to measure SPL about 4m in front of one of the stacks on the side of the floor. I reset the limiter to allow no more than 105dB at that spot, and 100dB on the front edge of the floor ~45ft from the speakers and 30ft from the back wall. This still provided a very full sound in the room. I rechecked the amp voltage with the 1kHz signal. The tops were getting 12.4v! That's less than 40w into 4 Ohms!!!!! The subs were getting about 16v or ~75w into 3.33 Ohms. This is where the system stayed for the rest of the weekend.

The EQ curve would have made me cringe in years past. I let the AEQ run for about 45 seconds to stabilize, and took those values. Using the bypass function on the DEQ, the EQ was certainly helping the sound.

There was some power noise that was about 110dB down. It was plainly audible in the speakers - if the room was empty and quite. The hotel electrician had never heard that noise in a PA before. Even isolating the sources and effects behind a UPS was not enough - the amps were exposed to the power directly. The ballroom shared a panel with the kitchen, so every electric motor - all the fans, blowers, refridges, etc, etc - was dumping noise into the system. This is one of the unintended consequences of really sensitive speakers.

OK, so how did it sound?

The clarity, brightness, and SPL of the DR's can not be understated. Simply put, this is the clearest, cleanest, and brightest set of tops I have ever heard. The DR's are so good that I never want to boost that 80lb KP-3002 onto a stand again! The DRs sound so much better than the KP-3002's even with the BBE "cheat."

The T39's were *awesome*. On 25W of power per box the T39's still solidly held down the low end. Across the back of the room, the sound was full, the bass was very present, and it was never too loud.

This sound is very different from tops/subs that use direct radiators. You need to stand back a little to really let the sound mix together. These boxes really shine when you are 10ft back or so.

Problems in year's past with "slap back" from the far wall were completely gone. I used a little "toe in" on the setup...but I've done that with other speakers. I'm wondering if the tight vertical dispersion of the DR was the real solution. By keeping the sound off the ceiling and floor, it may have helped control the slap back.

I had event directors for three other events hire me based on how the system sounded over the weekend! I am still in negotiation with one other event director to do their event. At this point, I have checks in hand that cover more than the total cost of the build...all from this one weekend.

This event was a professional dance competition. In some of the divisions, couples can choose their own music. In most cases, these couples have listened to these songs for months as they developed their routines and practiced. They know these songs inside and out. I had four professional couples who "complained" that on my system they were hearing things in the music that they had never noticed before and it was distracting to them. :wink:

What's next?

After I got home from the event, I noticed that on the x-firing arrays, that the center glue joint had "split" in a couple of places after I screwed it down. So, I had air leaks in at least half the DR's - and they were still louder and clearer than anything else I've heard!!! I can't wait to get that fixed and try them out again.

I do need to get some taller stands. My current stands will go to about 7'. With a "tall boy" design, that is enough to get a CD horn high enough. With DR's, I think 8' is the minimum practical height, if you have a 8-10' stand off from the audience.

I need to build a V-plate and try that with the T39's. I have another event coming up in two weeks...and I should be able to get that done by then.

Overall, I'm even more impressed now than before I started the build. I do have a lot of energy, time, blood, and knuckle skin tied up in these cabinets. Even so, the payoff of hearing them is better than I was expecting.

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

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David Carter
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#2 Post by David Carter »

Great review! That's awesome that the build paid for itself on it's debut outing! Makes me anxious to get my DR250's done!

Congratulations!
Dave

Built:
- Omni 10 (S2010 + piezo array)
- 2 x DR250 (DL II 2510 + melded array)
- 2 x Titan 39 (BP102 - 14"W)
- 2 x Titan 39 (3012LF - 20"W)
- 4 x DR200 (Delta Pro 8B + melded array)

Troutwiz
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#3 Post by Troutwiz »

I am trying to learn as much as I can from all of you here and I have a question for the sound guys out there.
The tops were getting 12.4v! That's less than 40w into 4 Ohms!!!!! The subs were getting about 16v or ~75w into 3.33 Ohms. This is where the system stayed for the rest of the weekend.
I understand that this was his first time out with the new setup, but, in the future, in this situation, would Stan be better off pushing more power into fewer cabinets? I am just thinking in terms of keeping the power in the amps and speakers in the midrange.

Sydney

#4 Post by Sydney »

but, in the future, in this situation, would Stan be better off pushing more power into fewer cabinets?
Not in my opinion. It sounds like his system has plenty of overhead for Crest factor. His amps were probably at room temp and could run like that indefinitely.
I would rather have as many cabs as I could, with fewer amps - than seeing how few cabs I could by with knowing that I'm going to have put a lot more power to them and limit overhead capability.
These subs were designed to be run it multiples - that offers sensitivity advantages.
* Those power calcs he listed do not reflect instantaneous peak demand - With amply overhead - detail is maintained. hence people heard stuff they hadn't hear before.
BTW - Perhaps a line filter/conditioner or some CORCOM type filters would cut out the extraneous noise?
Last edited by Sydney on Tue Jan 15, 2008 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#5 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

Troutwiz wrote:I am trying to learn as much as I can from all of you here and I have a question for the sound guys out there.
The tops were getting 12.4v! That's less than 40w into 4 Ohms!!!!! The subs were getting about 16v or ~75w into 3.33 Ohms. This is where the system stayed for the rest of the weekend.
I understand that this was his first time out with the new setup, but, in the future, in this situation, would Stan be better off pushing more power into fewer cabinets? I am just thinking in terms of keeping the power in the amps and speakers in the midrange.
No I would not. There is no need to run a box or amp "in the middle." The lower the total power required, the better everything will do over time.

Every setup is about compromises and choices. To "help" me make decisions I asked the event directors (i.e. paycheck signers) what their priorities for the sound system are. Together, we cam up with this list of commandments:

1) Thou shalt not let the DJs make it too loud in the room.
2) Thou shalt ensure that the sound must be loud enough for the competitors to clearly hear their music everywhere on the dance floor.
3) Thou shalt not place cabinets or stands upon the stage.

More power to fewer boxes would have meant a larger "zone of death" in front of each top. In addition, in the middle of the back of the floor, the dancers would be 170 degrees off axis and 30 ft from a speaker - that makes it really hard to hear the highs directly.

I want full, even sound - with the smallest possible "zone of death" in front of each box. By using less power to more boxes, I was able to provide a very even sound across the whole dance floor. I needed people to be able to dance within 8 to 10 ft of the tops and still be comfortable. Even at their peak, no one box was producing more than 120dB @ 1m.

The setup will be different next year - I will build some stands to get the tops elevated behind the backdrop, and to get enough additional cables/amps to have three stacks of subs that are wall/corner loaded.

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#6 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

Sydney wrote: Not in my opinion. It sounds like his system has plenty of overhead for Crest factor. His amps were probably at room temp and could run like that indefinitely.
+1

Even with 24 hours of continuous use on Saturday - 6am floor tryouts, a full day of competition, and late night dancing until 6am Sunday - the amps never got past "warm." Again, this system ran for 45 hours between Friday and Sunday - with only a couple 2-3 hour breaks. That is a common duty cycle for events like this.

At an event last year, my (old) system literally did not shut down between 5pm on Friday and 5pm on Sunday.
Sydney wrote: BTW - Perhaps a line filter/conditioner or some CORCOM type filters would cut out the extraneous noise?
I tried putting everything but the amps behind a UPS. I tried some ferrite chokes on the XLR lines in the effect chain. I tried adding a noise floor to the DEQ (that did take out all the board noise...but did not help the power noise). I tried lifting the ground on the DCX (not my favorite thing in the world, but I was desperate). I think it will take a power conditioner for the whole system (including the amps) to clean out the noise.

I had a loooooooong meeting with the building engineer to discuss the problem. He agreed that it was the building power, and said he would bring up the idea of isolating the ballroom circuits from the rest of the hotel during an upcoming renovation.

I hooked up enough of the system in my garage after I got home and the noise was gone. It was definitely something that was in the hotel's power.

I hope that the problem is corrected for next year, but I'm still looking for a trick or two to have in my bag - just in case.

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#7 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

SoundInMotionDJ wrote: I think it will take a power conditioner for the whole system (including the amps) to clean out the noise.


--Stan Graves
That may help, but not likely. The best bet is to get on a circuit totally separate from the kitchen, preferably using a 220 v breakout box. I'd get the building engineer to have a 220 v box installed for the purpose, wired direct to the service entrance. When you build the breakout box install Corcom twin-t filters on the 110 outlets.

Sydney

#8 Post by Sydney »

circuit totally separate
Agree 100%. A dedicated line that is not shared with the offending source of hash is the best way to do it- vs filtering out what rides in on the line.
I put dedicated lines in my home. The results were well worth the cost of some additional copper - in reduction of noise, increase in detail and as the "esoterics" say a "blacker black.

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LelandCrooks
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#9 Post by LelandCrooks »

Compressors in the kitchen fridge. Dirtiest electrical things in the world.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com

David Luscombe
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#10 Post by David Luscombe »

that sounds great. any chance of some pics, i for one would be very interested indeed.

cheers dave

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#11 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

Here is a close up look at the stage. For reference the floor is 64 ft wide at this point. There is about 70 feet of room on either side of the stage.

The second stack of subs is just off the right hand side of the pic. I was not able to keep them symmetric...but it really did not make much difference in the sound on the main floor.

You can see some DRs on the stage - those were moved under the table skirts and were not visible during the event. In this shot, the ballroom was about 85% done.

Image

Here is a closeup of the sub stack on the left of the pic above. The tape trailing to the left in the pic is going to the side fill DR. The amps were in a pile behind the T39's - I ran power and signal to them, and used short (12ft) cords to make the final connection to the speakers.

Image

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#12 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

The view from the booth. Here is the console with some dancers in the background. This was during one of the contests. Since I can't get waivers for photos from all the dancers...I just blur them out.

Image

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

David Luscombe
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#13 Post by David Luscombe »

very cool thanks for that....can't wait to build mine lol

cheers david

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James R
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#14 Post by James R »

Nice, Stan did you use 8 DR200's? in the pictures all I can see is 4 8)
" Everyone Has a Photographic Memory, Just Not Everyone Has Film In The Camera"


4 x T48 24.5" 3015LF
8 x 112 Otops


NEXT 2 x DR280's

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LelandCrooks
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#15 Post by LelandCrooks »

James R wrote:Nice, Stan did you use 8 DR200's? in the pictures all I can see is 4 8)
Where's Waldo? :o

I see 6.
If it's too loud, you're even older than me! Like me.
http://www.speakerhardware.com

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