T48 vs other misc subs

[jeffbabcock]

This is just a collection of my thoughts of T48 vs other common subs that I regularly encounter, some from past posts, some new.

In future I do intend to get into some more mesurements, I just never seem to find the time to spend a day doing it..... so take all of these comments with a grain of salt.... in most cases I have used the subs below in the same venues as the T48, so I have a reasonable point of reference, but there are too many variables to take this info as anything more than my thoughts.

Titan48 vs Yorkville LS808 (passive) and LS800p (active).

The LS800/LS808 are single 18" subs with a kind of semi-horn loaded design. First, these are a pain to move. The size is just downright awkward, the T48 is much easier to wheel around. In terms of overall output, in singles they seem to be about on par with a T48, however they need a lot more power to get to that point. The sound is considerably differerent between the 2. The Yorkville is much boomier sounding and a bit muddy overall. I find this to be a similar characteristic of all of their LS series subs (LS1208 included). The Titan has more impact, and sounds more controlled, particularly when you do some time alignment with the tops. From a pure sonic perspective the yorkvilles might work well for dance/hip hop/raves etc but in other contexts I don't find them that appealing. They do put out lots of low end, but IMHO it doesn't sound as good as the titan, and needs twice as much power. Really I think they are more of a competitor to the Tuba series than Titans, they are more geared to that market.

T48 vs Yorkville TX9

I have compared T48 to Yorkville TX9 briefly. This is Yorkville's touring grade front loaded sub. It's difficult to directly compare them because they are so different. The TX9 is dual 18 and has RCF drivers that have a LOT of 2nd order harmonics (distortion). It's actually a very nice sounding sub(but power hungry!) in certain situations and is "sounds" louder at max power than a T48 in singles (until you start getting into multiples where horn coupling can kick in!) , but much of the perceived loudness is largely coming from the distortion. The titan is totally different sounding - very clean and loud, sounds great, but just "DIFFERENT", as all horns are from direct radiators. It's just too hard to compare them properly. I prefer the horn sound most times, but occasionally the bit of distortion can be cool with certain genres. I don't think it's fair to directly compare horns and front loaded subs... you really have to hear both and decide for yourself the sound you like. Outside of the sonic discussion, the TX9 is a huge, heavy beast. It is not easily managed by 1 person, thus not practical for one-man operations. Also a block of 4 of these needs 6400 watts. That means using these, I'm dragging out the distro to power the rig, which adds another level of cost/complexity. A block of 4 titans would take less space, weigh half as much, and take only a fraction of the power to surpass that kind of output.

T48 vs Mackie SWA1501 and SWA1801 active subs.

Again it is difficult because the Mackies are front loaded subs (single 15" and single 18"). The 15" sounds better to my ear than the 18" version, but the 15" has very little output, so is not even close to the same league as the T48. The 18" version IMHO is boring. Flabby sounding, not much impact, just plain mediocre. It can make a lot of noise for its size but I wouldn't classify it as good noise. Neither of these hold a candle to the T48 and IMHO both of these Mackie subs are easily outclassed by tons of other subs on the market. The only thing I really like is the blue LED light on the front of them.

Re crossover points....

I do find that with the T48 it is better to not raise your crossover point too high. I find once you get much above 100Hz the sound gets more directional and so there is a little bit of "smear", and above 120Hz it gets considerably worse. As you get into the more directional frequencies, all of the angles and folds in the horn path start to create a lack of coherence in the upper frequencies. Not so much so that it's what I would call bad, but it's perceptible to me at least. So if you are anal about quality, keep your T48's around or under 100Hz for optimum results.


I will post more later, I have 4 EAW LA400's coming in the next month or so, which should be a better challenge for the Titans.

Thanks
Jeff

[thijs666]

I'm very interested in your findings, especially on the comparison with the EAW LA400's... This is what they cost over here in Europe mainland. (Yes, I know, it's in euro's, 1 euro = +/- US$1.50 ...)



Or should I say:

[LelandCrooks]

Nice to hear direct comparisons to other commercial subs. Not many of us get a chance to play with other brands.

Useful review, thanks

[brodave2]

The TX9 is dual 18 and has RCF drivers that have a LOT of 2nd order harmonics (distortion). It's actually a very nice sounding sub(but power hungry!) in certain situations and is louder than a T48 in singles (until you start getting into multiples where horn coupling can kick in!) ,

I find it interesting that you state the tx9 is louder. I suppose that is with a LOT more power going to it. With the same power I compared my one of my Titan 48's to one of my double 18 subs, and the difference was unbelievable, the Titan was 6db louder at 80hz. Of course, the double 18 was getting twice the wattage since it's 4 ohms (two 8 ohm drivers) vs. the titan's single 8 ohm driver, and I sent the same voltage to both. At lower frequencies the difference I'm sure would have been less, since I was testing a single titan and not getting the benefit of coupling. I wish now that when I had them all out I would have tested two titans vs. one double 18 sub. So, I ask, were you throwing a LOT more power to the TX9 to get it to go louder? Would it have been louder with the same power as the titan was getting?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The TX9 is dual 18 and has RCF drivers that have a LOT of 2nd order harmonics (distortion). It's actually a very nice sounding sub(but power hungry!) in certain situations and is louder than a T48 in singles (until you start getting into multiples where horn coupling can kick in!) ,

I find it interesting that you state the tx9 is louder.

This is the reason: much of the perceived loudness is largely coming from the distortion

[brodave2]

This is the reason: much of the perceived loudness is largely coming from the distortion

so the big question becomes, "Is the perception of loudness more likely to satisfy the customer?"

[wannabe]

V-couple a few tintan/tuba subs up and see if its not loud enough. If its not something (hearing loss, just plain def) must be wrong (crappy build quality, hope that doesnt happen with mine ).

[jeffbabcock]

That's correct... in perceived loudness TX9 wins. It has A LOT of distortion, especially the older model with the RCF drivers, in the latest rev with B&C drivers there is a bit less distortion.

The TX9 takes 1600W. If you both ran them at the same wattage, the Titan is louder, it is FAR more efficient. However just plugging them both into the same amp the Titan doesn't have an advantage because at 10ohms it does not draw power from the amp the same way the 4 ohm TX9 does. This fools some people and they come to a wrong conclusion.

So if you were oblivious to the ohms thing, if you just plugged both into an amp at full volume, you might not think the titan is that efficient in comparison. IT IS once you are aware of how impedance affects it. This is where some people get confused with Titans, not understanding how much current is actually being sent to the driver.

With all that said, often it is sometimes harder to perceive "loud" with horn subs even though when you measure them they are very loud. The sound is very clean. I like this sound a lot, but some people do not. Only you can answer that.

If you're using a double 18, even though you crossed over at let's say 80Hz, there are harmonics still arriving from that sub at higher frequencies in the lower mids! Get some measurement software and you'll see it. Just because you crossed over with a steep slope on your front load sub does not mean it will not make noise above that crossover point! Depending on the sub you'll be amazed at what is coming out in the low mids, certainly not what the crossover is telling it to do!

So it really is "leaking" into the mids where your tops cover. And it's NOT something you can accurately control with EQ. Use a horn sub with less distortion and suddenly all that stuff is not leaking into your low mids that was there before. This is a GOOD THING, but some people get used to that distortion crap and now perceive something missing. Yep, the low mid leakage is gone. If your tops are low-mid weak you will perhaps now be dissatisfied. DR's and Otops being horn loaded have lots of lower mid capability, so they can work well in this regard.

That's a pretty crude way of explaining things, but I hope it helps. Bill and others feel free to clarify if I was not clear or a bit off track.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

That's a pretty crude way of explaining things, but I hope it helps. Bill and others feel free to clarify if I was not clear or a bit off track.

It's very accurate. It also explains why some very high priced but poor performing hi-fi speakers supposedly need 400 or more hours of break-in. The speakers don't sound any better after 400 hours than they do after 40, but the manufacturers know that after 400 hours you'll be so used to their bad sound that you won't remember what good sound is.

[Nordskov]

I think you made it very clear.
I wasn't aware of the amount of harmonics send to the low-mids when crossing lower. That's outrageous!
How can you make good sound under such conditions, when you can't control what's coming from which kabinet.

Commercials endeed are very powerfull, and so are habits and myths

[jeffbabcock]

Nordskov,
You can in some cases still get a good mix despite the loss of control. The TX9 for example sounds pretty good in SOME applications. In some cases it does not matter much, in others it can be problematic. I am the anal type of personality that does not like the idea of losing control.

I remember many years ago, a few gigs where I had some very mediocre subs, and I was trying to get rid of a bunch of excessive low-mids. At first I thought it was a crossover problem. I couldn't seem to EQ it out. Finally I just unplugged the subs and realized what was going on. I ended up running without the subs on one gig because with them on it actually sounded a lot worse. Subs these days tend to be not quite THAT bad in most cases, but bad enough that many of us should care about it.

[jeffbabcock]

Just a quick update,
I still have some LA400's coming, but that isn't going to happen for another month or so, the sale got delayed a bit. I will follow up with a comparison against the T48 once those come into the shop. I know quite a few people are keen to see the LA400 measured as EAW doesn't put much info out on them.

[dbaldock]

Just a quick update,
I still have some LA400's coming, but that isn't going to happen for another month or so, the sale got delayed a bit. I will follow up with a comparison against the T48 once those come into the shop. I know quite a few people are keen to see the LA400 measured as EAW doesn't put much info out on them.

Does EAW forbid their dealers from publishing comparitive measurements?

[jeffbabcock]

Not to my knowledge. It's more troublesome taking accurate sub measurements as you need a BIG outdoor space to actually do a somewhat accurate test, maybe that's part of it.

EAW is very inconsistent with providing specs. The "claimed" efficiency of the LA400 is pretty much impossible, so my guess is it is taken from either an unusable frequency or from a block of 4, that's probably why they don't publish the spec.

Anyway I don't want to discuss LA400 any more in this forum for now because what I'm actually talking about is the T48. When I get them in I will compare the 2 just to have a reference point.

[jbell]

I've done many eaw cabs, and I know to look for the fine print.
http://www.eaw.com/info/EAW/Loudspeaker ... S_rev1.pdf

an LA400 is 107db efficient somewhere between 45-250... most likely at 150-250hz.
They also claim 140db 'peak' but 134 @500watts continuous into a 12" driver. (AND... that's a calculated max, not a measured max) To put that into perspective, franks dual TT Measured almost 112 close to 200hz...

To be fair to EAW, they do say the LA400 is +-3db @45hz-250hz (meaning 45 hz is -6db), and -10db @40hz.

so there are some specs available.