DR-200-250 A/B

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DJPhatman
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#31 Post by DJPhatman »

Look again...
OT12 x 2
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O10 x 2
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Now maybe I am musically retarded, but I read the OT12 as only 1db lower at 50 Hz then jumping to 6db higher thereafter. Am I wrong? Am I not reading the SPL charts correctly? And remember, the charts are for All Deltalite drivers, and we tested S2012s in the OT12s. Also, the O10s were not ported.

Also remember, these were side by side tests, done with no other equipment other than Tim's and my EARS!!! We are telling everyone who will listen this is what we heard, not what we measured or calculated. I will say that both cabs benefit greatly when combined with subs.

ps Tim :P pffffffffffffffffftttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

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vlad335
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#32 Post by vlad335 »

Tim Ard wrote:And no, I'm not a bassist. Yeesh...it's bad enough I had to hang out with a DJ this weekend. What's next, Karaoke? :lol:
Actually I thought you played bass as well. Bassists are generally cool and guitar players for the most part are... Um,

Nevermind. :)

Excellent writeup Tim. Enjoyed reading it. Keep em coming.
Currently running:
Four Titan 48's, Six Omnitop 12's, Two Wedgehorn 10's, Omni12 2-10

Also Built: Omni15 Tallboy, Omni10.5.

'The hardest material on earth is the human skull'. How do we know this? Try pounding a new idea into one.

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DJPhatman
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#33 Post by DJPhatman »

Tim Ard wrote:And no, I'm not a bassist. Yeesh...it's bad enough I had to hang out with a DJ this weekend. What's next, Karaoke? :lol:
<<Hands Tim a mic and starts the karaoke CD of "Paradise By The Dashboard Lights" :twisted:
I know money often seals the deal, but seriously, quality is an investment, not an expense... Grant Bunter
Accept the fact that airtight and well-braced are more important than pretty on the inside. Bill Fitzmaurice

E.M.
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#34 Post by E.M. »

DJPhatman wrote: Deltalite drivers, and we tested S2012s in the OT12s. Also, the O10s were not ported.

It would be interesting to hear the results with an un-castrated O10.

Mikey
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#35 Post by Mikey »

Omni 10 versus OmniTop 2x12 for bass guitar. Curiosity got the better of me, so I thought I'd do more comparison.

First, I lifted the SPL charts, cut them off at 200hz, and stretched them, in order to get a better look at their bass response...

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They're neck and neck from about 60-75hz. At 50hz, the O10 has about 4dbs advantage. At 40hz, the O10 has about 1db advantage. At 30hz, they're neck and neck again. This means that the O10 does not have better bass extension than the OT12, it just has a few more dbs in the 45-50hz area.

As far as the difference in drivers, here are the charts...

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Comparing the 10s, the 2510 is consistently stronger than the S2010 by 1-2db, from mid-bass all the way down. The mids of the 2510 are obviously much better.

Comparing the 12s, from 250hz and down, they're virtually identical. Again, obviously, the mids of the 2512 are much better.

So, what's it all mean, Eugene? It means I was wrong. Slapping a "bass guitar neo" in an Omni instead of a "pro neo" isn't going to give you any extra extension or bass-end sensitivity. In fact, if you use S2010s in an O10 instead of 2510s, you'll lose a little sensitivity. The S2012 and the 2512 will have almost identical low end in an OT12.

In an O10, the 2510 is the hands-down winner. It has better bass sensitivity, better mids, handles more power, plus has greater Xmax and Vd. IMO, it's worth the extra cost.

In an OT12, the story is a little different. The 2512 has better mids and greater power handling, but the S2010 has just as much bass sensitivity, plus it has greater Xmax and Vd. For $25 less per driver, the S2012 isn't too bad by comparison.

In the "shootout", I think the added natural warmth of the 12" drivers, compared to 10s, was part of what influenced your ears. Specs don't lie, but they don't tell the whole story, either, which was the reason for your tests.

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Tim A
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#36 Post by Tim A »

Let's all take a step back. The last thing I want is for this to turn into a pissing match. We did these tests by ear to see how they actually sounded. We did not go into them with any bias one way or the other. In fact, most expectations we had were shown to be wrong.

But again, this is only one test by two guys with somewhat educated ears. Neither of us are sound gurus, but we've both had enough experience to be able to describe what we're hearing and know how to correct uneven response.

There is absolutley no doubt in my mind that the 2 OTop 12's had a warmer sound than the Omni 10. That translated, to our ears, as more bass. Was it? Or was it a lack of mids that made the bass more pronounced? I don't know.

These tests weren't done to prove anything one way or the other. Several people had questions, as did I. The tests merely offered an opportunity to set up several of Bill's more popular designs and hear them head to head for ourselves. Any information in our findings is based on the summary opinion of the two listeners, that's it and that's all. There is no scientific evidence or data to compile, no charts, no voltage readings.

Again, I urge anyone deciding which cabinet to build to use this strictly as added information. Do not apply any more credence than it is worth. Use the charts, and use the advice of the experienced people on this forum.

WB
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#37 Post by WB »

First off, thanks to Tim Ard and DJPhatman for doing the "shootout". This is such valuable information. Also thanks for the replies to my question. What I didn't realize was the O10 being unported. I always thought the OT212 would make an awesome bass cab for indoor situations with boomy rooms. I was pleasantly surprised that your testing revealed it to perform well.

DJPhatman, I studied these charts at length and I see the same thing you do. I've thought in the past even though the OT12x2 rolls off at 100 Hz, the actual dB level aren't really less in the 55-70 Hz. region. Therefore if you were to bump the bass EQ levels a little you would be doing so at much lower power levels because of the huge sensitiviy above 100 Hz.

Mikey, man you come up with some of the most interesting posts and illustrations. Looking at the stretched blowup, it looks like the OT12 unloads at 55 Hz verses 50 Hz for the O10. Never noticed that before, but not sure how meaningful that small difference might be though.

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#38 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

WB wrote:but not sure how meaningful that small difference might be though.
Small differences are not meaningful.

People, people, people...don't try to make this test something it wasn't. This was two guys standing around listening to music through BFD cabinets and trying to decide if one combination sounded better to them than another. [Oh, and there may have been beer involved....if DJPhatman brought beer as requested. If not, then I owe both of you a 6 pack.]

The point of the test was to A/B a DR200 and a DR250. The key setups were 1:1, 2:1, 3:2. The results speak for themselves.

As someone about to hack up a dozen sheets of plywood to build a herd of DRs, this was EXACTLY the kind of information that I needed. I can read the charts all day and pour over driver specs...but I don't (yet?) have the ability to turn that into something my head can use to make a decision. What I needed was a subjective evaluation of how those boxes sounded with music. That is exactly what we got.

We also got that all of the cabinets were good, and that none were in a different league. We got confirmation of everything that has been said about the different designs so far. DRs if you can, OTs if you can't.

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

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klocwerk
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#39 Post by klocwerk »

E.M. wrote:
DJPhatman wrote: Deltalite drivers, and we tested S2012s in the OT12s. Also, the O10s were not ported.
It would be interesting to hear the results with an un-castrated O10.
Agreed. Just noticed that myself.
With no ports in the O10's I wouldn't be remotely surprised that the OT12's had better bass response.
There's a guy near me with some OT12's, and I have a ported O10.5 with a 2510 in it. If I get some free time soon (hah!) I'll see if we can meet up and settle the issue, with my Apex measurement mic in tow.

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Bill Fitzmaurice
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#40 Post by Bill Fitzmaurice »

There's no question that the OTop has a higher sensitivity than O10 above 100 Hz, it's supposed to. But it's not more sensitive than a ported O10 below 100Hz, which is where power demands are highest. The O10 variants are 25% smaller than OTop 12s with the same number of drivers. So if what you want is the highest sensitivity where power demands are greatest from the smallest possible package the O10 has the advantage. If you prefer the sound of the OTop 12 to the O10 that's a different question entirely.

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Tim A
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#41 Post by Tim A »

I'm not sure the Omni 10 wasn't ported, maybe just a misunderstanding on DJ Phatman's part. Hopefully he'll comment.

No beer involved, too bloody cold.

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SoundInMotionDJ
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#42 Post by SoundInMotionDJ »

Tim Ard wrote:No beer involved, too bloody cold.
Ahhh...so then it was whiskey...to take the chill off your bones. :wink:

--Stan Graves
10 T39S + 10 DR200 + 1 T48

hclague
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#43 Post by hclague »

Tim wrote:
The DR200's do have the low pass filter installed, but they don't use a throat filler, too small of an area to make a difference. The 250's do not have the mods.
This could certainly be a factor in explaining the perceived clarity difference in the DR200 and DR250.

Hal

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#44 Post by hclague »

Tim

I forgot to ask. Did you use 1" open cell foam to line the interior of your DR200's or just Polyfil? The original plans said to use just polyfil but I believe the latest revision has switched to Open cell foam.

Bill could you comment?

Hal

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Tim A
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#45 Post by Tim A »

hclague wrote:Tim

I forgot to ask. Did you use 1" open cell foam to line the interior of your DR200's or just Polyfil? The original plans said to use just polyfil but I believe the latest revision has switched to Open cell foam.

Bill could you comment?

Hal
Polyfill. I was very careful to keep it off the back of the driver. Whatever I did, it was right. They sound fantastic.

I seriously doubt the low pass filter would add clarity. It would've flattened out response for less EQ, but we did that manually anyway. The OTop had the low pass in it. If there were anything about the test that I feel very comfortable stating as a fact, it'd be the clarity. It wasn't perceived, it was real and it was immediately noticable.

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