T30/T48/T60

[commander_dan]

2c from a fellow bass lover. I chose T30 for the extension and I can tell you that with modern day track mastering being as beastly as it is, volume is NOTHING if you can't hit the low notes. But, I'm fussy. I dont like hearing low end drop off when content is there, it is not pleasing at all. Choose wisely.

[Marflinger]

2c from a fellow bass lover. I chose T30 for the extension and I can tell you that with modern day track mastering being as beastly as it is, volume is NOTHING if you can't hit the low notes. But, I'm fussy. I dont like hearing low end drop off when content is there, it is not pleasing at all. Choose wisely.

Interesting, thank you.

May i ask you what genres you run through your t30, how you stack them (experiences with v-plating?) and what venue size indoor/outdoor you cater?

[commander_dan]

Interesting, thank you.

May i ask you what genres you run through your t30, how you stack them (experiences with v-plating?) and what venue size indoor/outdoor you cater?

I mainly do outdoor gigs/private parties (that being said, got a semi indoor gig coming next week on a rooftop). Usually anywhere between 2 and 6 cabs, and usually V-plated (even with 6). V-plate is a very worthy addition outdoors, we usually try to seal the mating edges of the cabs with tube lagging as quite a lot of air pressure is lost there. Pic attached of a 6x setup outdoors.

I play 100% EDM spread between D&B, house, techno, breaks, and hiphop.

I'd say the blast zone coverage area of that setup outdoors is apprx 100m² so it's not massive, but its loud and low enough.

[Marflinger]

I play 100% EDM spread between D&B, house, techno, breaks, and hiphop.

Which is already sort of the genres where the listener has a faible for lower frequencies...
Thank you for that insight!
Looks nice :)
And thank you as well for the idea with the gaps, will keep that in mind.

I'll continue figure out the hornresp-simulating and plot them against each other; but the handy aspect of the T30 comes again; compact size clearly visible in your pictures.
I will also take your 3012LF in there and see what other drivers would differ from there...
will update this here when i got enough time in there and got a seemingly solid result.

[Joman116]

Interesting, thank you.

May i ask you what genres you run through your t30, how you stack them (experiences with v-plating?) and what venue size indoor/outdoor you cater?

I mainly do outdoor gigs/private parties (that being said, got a semi indoor gig coming next week on a rooftop). Usually anywhere between 2 and 6 cabs, and usually V-plated (even with 6). V-plate is a very worthy addition outdoors, we usually try to seal the mating edges of the cabs with tube lagging as quite a lot of air pressure is lost there. Pic attached of a 6x setup outdoors.

I play 100% EDM spread between D&B, house, techno, breaks, and hiphop.

I'd say the blast zone coverage area of that setup outdoors is apprx 100m² so it's not massive, but its loud and low enough.

That subwoofer setup looks absolutely lethal! Good stuff! Wish I could hear it.

[commander_dan]

That subwoofer setup looks absolutely lethal! Good stuff! Wish I could hear it.

Cheers, she punches hard

[Marflinger]

Soooo,

i think i figured at least the hornresp horn modeling part correct.

The following figures resulted:

Tuba30, external width 30", dual 12" Driver (applies to all)

Here the Stack of 4, V-Plated, Driver is the 3012LF, max SPL:

T30 30 dual 3012LF 4Stack maxSPL VPlate.png (10.67 KiB) Viewed 156 times

Here the Stack of 4, V-Plated, Driver the LaVoce, max SPL:

T30 30 dual LaVoce 4Stack maxSPL VPlate.png (9.97 KiB) Viewed 156 times

Here The T30 single vs stack of 4 without V-Plate, max SPL:

Titan 48, external width 30", dual12" loaded (applies to all)

Here the Stack of 4, V-Plated, LaVoce Driver, max SPL:

T48 30 dual LaVoce 4Stack maxSPL VPlate.png (10.64 KiB) Viewed 156 times

Here the T48 single vs. Stack of 4 without V-Plate, max SPL:

T48 30 dual LaVoce 4Stack vs single maxSPL.png (11.69 KiB) Viewed 156 times

So, first of all: if anyone feels there has to be an error, give it to me please.

Assuming this (more or less) is correct, it seems as the T30 really goes a bit lower, even in stacks of 4.
The difference between T30 4Stack and T48 4Stack is just around that 5db (Comparing 4 cabs to 4 cabs, so half the Volume of space from the Cabs)
Doing 8 T30 stacked V-Plated:

T30 30 dual LaVoce 8Stack maxSPL VPlate.png (10.79 KiB) Viewed 156 times

To compare the same Volume of cabs - we even surpassed the T48 limits. T48 brings a dent at around 80 Hz, from there on the T30 (double cab count, same volume) tops it out.
And the roll-off down below is smoother within the T30 stacks, no matter which variant.

The limiting point seems to be the Driver, not the cab itself.

So, to get to my questions from the beginning of ths trip:

- I don't think there is something the T48 would achieve i could not reproduce by just building more of the T30. The better upper range extincts within the same volume of cabs (there is doulbe the amount of drivers included)

- i need double the amount of drivers and amp power to achieve that with the T30, on the same power there is around 5 db difference but still the T30 plays lower
BUT the storage space needed still the half. The result of 8 T30 will blow me away anyway, even if the simulation is typically of by 2-3 db.

- The Hornextension doesn't seem to be in any sensible relation comparing the size of the horn to the result. I don't think i will follow that, maybe when i run out of ideas what to build next.

As the driver used limits the output situation, i will keep an eye open for other options that may fit (and will come back with the questions about them when they simulate better)

If anyone sees errors in there, please hint me on them i will try to fix that. Or any ideas which alternatives to simulate.

Edit: And in addition, the approximation with doubling the amount of cabs gives you x db, plating them gives you y db: Somehow not that far away, but it's just not that linear and effects every band in another way. And the plain calculating does not include limits of the driver you achieve, they come in first.

[Seth]

I think that red part of the trace indicates that, at that voltage, cone travel exceeds Xmax. Reduce the voltage until you get all solid black above the high pass frequency and that will be your max SPL plot... and maximum voltage.

Good job BTW. Thumbs up.

[Marflinger]

Also the black parts are limited by either excurson, voltage ore maximum power intake; but all driver related. Thats just how hornresp works, driving every frequency until there is a limit reached, when asking for max spl.

I'd also assume to take the lowest dent in a given area, and take that as a max spl you can drive that combination safely into.

For the t30 4stack plated i'd say its around 143db from 28 to 60, from there around 145db. This will be measured when built and eq'ed respectivly.
The t48 4stack plated would be around 147db from 35 to 70, and then probably quite flat upwards from there.
But all the curve does so far is showing the limits of the cab/driver combination.

I tend to go for the t30 so far tbh.
Also a bit more flexible, in terms of doing whatever small private events and picking just 4 of them; compact as hell when nothing more is needed.
and extendable as well, 2*stack of 4 or 2*stack of 6 or even 8 would be an option as well as just 4*stack of x cabs.
And lining them to an endfiring array would be an option too, sometimes helpful to have it somewhat more directive than just a ball in every direction.

First of all the weather is going to get better, and i can finally finish the first pair of dr's. So i got a bit of time left to think this through :)

[Marflinger]

Looking around for possible Amping situations: When going the T30 way, i can run one powersoft K10 to power up to 6 cabs per channel oO?
So the K10 gives me 6000 W @ 2 Ohm stable, not bridged.
Using the above LaVoce-Driver (400W program/800W peak) i end up at 5000 W program/8000 W Peak when inside the T30 Seriel (16 Ohm), and then Parallel 6 Cabs (not really 2 Ohm, rather 3 or 2.x).
This should end up right below the maximum power and when limited properly not damage the drivers; end up slightly below the max SPL but would be..just...1 Rack unit high oO?
This is spooky.

Th K20 would slightly exceed the drivers limit, e.g. make the drivers capability fully usable, also up to twelve cabs.
And the other way, a K3 bridged (7200W/4 Ohm) would happily take on 4 cabs including amp headroom (4 Cabs 6400 W Peak @ 4 Ohm) so i would need to take one K3 per stack of 4 (or accepting the "underpowering" same as K10 just for 6 cabs one bridged)


Two K3 used equal +- one K10 used; i couldn't find the K20 anywhere.
[For the DRs i got on a Wharfedale (which is CRV here) and will probably take that for now. Gonna test tuesday]
This would end up in maximum 4 Rack units used for a f*ckload of sound, which feels super weird. (including the dsp!)

[Marflinger]

Regarding the amping, i ran into two issues:

the thermal situation totally sucks in 1 unit height; this is to avoid i think when not running extra cooling systems around.
And the next point would be the breaker, when running on full power i would need to redo the PSU and this is nothing i want to play around with inside...

so my idea went to spread it on at least two phases, and have it in more height for the better cooling...and then there come the lab-clones like prokustik/sinbosen/whatever in handy and within the same pricing range.
Thinking about getting two of the FP14000; in theory, one could run 8*T30; 4 on each channel. When going by two, i can smoothly run 2 cabs per channel and the amp will be far away from limits of any kind; but i could add more cabs within the same amping situation.

As far as i found information online, it seems they do the job quite well? the FP14 better than the FP10 or others. Any experiences on that? I'd give them each 1RU height extra on top for heat dispersion, so they can breathe and don't die that fast. I think this should work? These phases will get a C-breaker, so the slower one for not having it flip when the big condensators start loading.


Edit: Another thought about the 4*T30 on each side:
I would carry the signal from the rack to the stack within a 4*2,5mm² cable, two channels in there.
Now i need to get that into two seperate cables, to have a pair of cabs on each channel.
I could take one "Splitter" cab with the wiring to that internal (1 4P in, 1 2p direct cab parallel, and one 2P out for the other channel) or i take an Y-splitter as the end of the cable. Splitting in Cable seems to be handy, as all the cabs would be interchangeable as they can have all the same connectors; on the other end this would be the "weakest" wire and maybe better inside the cab?
Thoughts on that?

Side note over the pond: I'm aware of the kind of fucked up climate over there, i hope you all are doing well...and now additionally the weather breaks down on you. Best luck to all of you, i hope you figure a way out of this...

[Seth]

Commercial rack mount amplifiers are designed to be racked without need for space above and below. It's literally the intention of rack mount gear to be mounted one on top of the other on top of the other on top of the other, and their cooling systems are designed for the application. If you're in an environment that's causing the amps to trip their thermal protection, additional space above and below the amplifier is not an adequate solution.

If you run four conductor speaker cabling and four pole connectors, the two choices I'd personally consider for myself are to either have specific cabs wired to one pair or the other, or optionally put a switch on the cab. In this configuration, you'd simply daisy chain all four cabs together. The switch option gives flexibility to each cab, but introduces the possibility of the switch being inadvertently set incorrectly or unknowingly flipped by a random person. The only time I'd think about a splitter cable is it if I needed to run cabs (without internal passive crossovers) in series.

I am not familiar with the amp models you specifically mentioned

[Marflinger]

I am not familiar with the amp models you specifically mentioned

These are cheap knockoffs from the scandinavian lab-gruppen; famous for their amount of power (at least once in the timeline, not sure today)
One known thing is the tendency to overheat, from there the additional unit spacing. Usually not needed, right.

The fp14000 delievers on 4ohm 4400w per channel (program, not peak) and cost around 650 here...tempting :)
https://dem.sinbosen.com/pid18167330/product-detail.htm

Other brands same manufacturer i think, just the names and distribution ways changed


To the cable: uh no, switch not an option.
When inside the cab, i'll just go with three sockets as above.
I think i'll test build such a splitter cable and see how it feels.
4p only to have it in one cable, one the long way instead of 2 2pole. Just need to seperate the end again into two 2poles.

[Seth]

Three sockets is not a bad option.

1RU amps aren't universally known to have thermal management problems. I know that's not what you said, but just thought I'd clarify for the casual reader as to not perpetuate misinformation.
I had an Admark AD-430 which is well respected in many circles.

That said, I would only recommend 1RU amps if you actually need to maximize space within your rack. I liked to have everything in one or two 4RU cases for my specific use. Otherwise it's not necessarily worth the additional cost. The amp you linked to should be more than enough, proper overkill for the job in your case. Price is right too.

[Keryn O'Shea]

Three sockets is not a bad option.

4pole lead in, 2pole connectors out

You might even do a better job of lining up the labels