I had a gig this weekend that required some pretty extreme low frequency directivity so we decided to do something a little bit different. I present to you; the endfire cardioid v plate array
Worked like a dream, with just under 4ms of delay and a polarity inversion. The bass was practically inaudible from up the road despite a solid 115dbc from FOH, with a shocking amount of beans left on the table, and no noise complaints from neighbors of a venue that frequently receives them. With the heavier ferrite drivers I didn't feel like we were throwing away too much performance. Was getting a reliable -6db at 30hz and completely flat to around 34hz.
Thanks for sharing. It is providing inspiration. I was in a band that played at a festival this past weekend, and the sound provider had one sub cab facing backward on top of a bottom one facing forward (four such stacks across the stage front, stacks spaced apart). Our band is playing at a gig this coming Saturday, and have been thinking about incorporating either plan.
The djs were bitching about the complete and utter lack of bass on stage but they don't realize how important this is for venue operations. The venue was very pleased, that was a first for them. Normally engineers don't have a care in the world and just let the sound go everywhere. Directional arrays are not only fun, they totally work, and help retain repeat clients.
My solution for ambitious headliner mentality performers was to lean on the fully digital workflow we have for the mains a little bit, let the djs just run out of fader and brick out the djm LOL. Its not clipping despite what it looks like. There is some hidden headroom in those modern dj mixers and a lack of analog converters to overload in this case. We use a spdif coaxial to Dante converter and patch that to my QL1 and everything was happy on the console input end. And sounded as reasonable as YouTube could sound They simply could not exceed the levels I set, nor undo my changes when I'm not looking I am tired of having these conversations with DJs over and over again.
I also sent the DJ monitor send into the system processor so I could easily reduce the sensitivity of the booth remotely and prevent noise complaints in that direction, from those being cranked by deaf djs. The way it was matrixed out, if they misbehaved enough I could have just removed their control entirely, remotely and patched in a lower level copy of the mains send. This was also actually super handy for piping playback into the monitors to provide a little background music for the campground from foh.
Something that I didn't fully give it's due consideration for a long time is the importance of having the performers sonic expectations met and/or pre-show communication about what they can expect and why, if they are going to have less than stellar sound on stage. I'm not a musician, singer, or DJ. In the very beginning of my learning curve, I didn't even know they needed monitors, like really needed them. From my perspective, if you can play an acoustic guitar and sing around a campfire, why can't you do the same thing plugged in and singing into a mic without a monitor? I was like, what do you mean "you need to hear yourself', just sing. Without blabbering on about my naivety early on, it did still take time for me to fully understand the importance of good monitoring sound quality as well as a good monitor mix for live musicians. Not only do they need to hear themselves, they feed off it and it makes them feel like they sound good out in the audience, when they sound good to them selves. I haven't worked with a ton of musicians like some of the guys here, but even with the 20 or so I have, I can tell when they're not hearing what they want to hear.
Some potential solutions I've thought of but never tried are building a platform for the performers to stand on with tactile transducers (bass shakers) mounted underneath. If you haven't had the experience, you'd be amazed at how much tactile transducers can impact the "listening" experience. I was initially going to do this for a bass player that we ran DI without an amp and had him on In Ear Monitors. It would absolutely work well for a DJ too. In a situation like yours, I had also thought about the possibility of putting the cardioid array behind the DJ, or at least place the array and booth in an orientation that doesn't put the booth in the intentional null zone. Array under the stage, perhaps.
You're doing so well with your business that I probably don't even have to say it, but I will... ideally, you want the DJ's AND the venue's to rave about you, your business, and how you do things. If you can't please both, you're always going to have to explain the situation, science, and why it is the way it is. I personally find it's easier for either of them to swallow the facts as they are when they're made aware of limitations and reasons as early as possible and presented unapologetically. "Please be advised, this is how it's going to be, this is why, just a heads up. Please respond to let me know you've received this communication and I'm happy to address any questions you may have."
Really though, try the tactile transducer platform if you do this venue again. It will make a positive impact on the performers energy. I'd even be curious to see what they had to say if you told them ahead of time the booth will be in an intentional null zone, so the bass at the booth will be way less than you're used to, and that you've taken a few measures to enhance their experience, given the venue's sonic requirements... without telling them about the tactile transducers to see what their unbiased experience was like afterwards compared to what they said last time.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded
Oh boy yeah as much as I would have loved to give the djs something a little more it really just wasn't in the cards. We gave the djs a pair of otops and it sounded very nice up there. They just wanted to feel the bass. While I do understand the need for high level monitoring, I started out as a vocal performer myself, there comes a point where it's too much and completely unnecessary. I mean I wouldn't be surprised to see a DJ use 80% even 90% of an otop straight to the face and cause themselves hearing issues down the road. If you give them an inch they will take a mile.
The monitor for a DJ is simply an extension of what is happening out front, it is not like monitoring for a band where it is mission critical to be able to perform, that is the headphones for a dj. A DJ should mix with 1 track in each earphone, and only use the monitors to reference the full mix at FOH. Mixing between your headphones and the monitors is bad technique imo. There are many situations where monitoring may have latency or may not even exist. Those 360 degree sets with the DJ in the middle comes to mind. Horrible way to set up a venue, monitors would be more of a problem than help. You would have to delay the monitors or just remove them entirely. Otherwise you would have severe smearing and echo from the monitors.
Headphones are the most reliable way to mix full stop. There are unfortunately some times like this where more subs, strictly under the control of the djs booth send are not the answer. This is not a traditional venue it's an air BNB/wedding venue and they have been consistently disrespected by other engineers/festivals in the past. There are neighbors any which direction. I was riding the spl meter and faders all weekend, another pair of cardioid booth subs would have just made it more complicated and contributed further to noise complaints without adding much if anything to the customer experience. The solution is to just give them what they need and make it sound nice, but reduce the level to a point where the neighbors are no longer calling about the monitors unfortunately there are times we need to make compromises in audio. A good engineer knows where to put these compromises. As much as I love catering to the djs, the djs aren't going to hire me to do more festivals and weddings at this beautiful venue. The owner of the venue will, however.
Edit: actually I totally did have one of the djs ask me to do their wedding now that I think about it
Last edited by Wylandright206 on Thu Jun 19, 2025 2:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Though I will say, I have been developing a 15 inch bass reflex sub to be mixed with the titans for either monitoring or supplemental purposes. When designing in hornresp I would export the simulation into rew and try to align with the titans. I found that with the natural rolloff and phase shift of a bass reflex, when you tune it to around 30 or 31hz it is VERY easy to phase align to a titan. The problem arises when the tuning is in the mid or upper 30s (or higher like practically all commercial subs) and the phase shift of the reflex is happening in a critical area for the t48. The low tuned reflex really only needed path delay compensation and it aligns across its entire passband. I'm very excited to have phase compatible subs for monitoring. It also uses the prv15sw2000
Seth wrote: ↑Thu Jun 19, 2025 12:51 am
Some potential solutions I've thought of but never tried are building a platform for the performers to stand on with tactile transducers (bass shakers) mounted underneath.
Several years ago I built a dance platform / riser, about 8" tall, really just a 4' square frame made of 2x6s on their sides, with (2) 2x4 "joists" (also on edge) 16" apart and connecting two opposite sides and 3/8" plywood decking on top. (I've been digging for pics but to no avail so far.) I added 12 large rubber feet on the floor facing side for stability. I connected the (2) 2x4s with another wide board horizontally, connecting them adjacent to and touching the plywood decking. Bolted to that wide flat board (and hidden beneath the platform) is a ButtKicker BK-CT Concert Transducer.
I decided to slighty undersize those 2x4 joists to give the platform some room to boom while still supporting 2-4 people. Initially I thought to over-engineer it (per my norm) but I realized I WANT it to move (vibrate), not be solid as a rock.
While I haven't utilized it in a DJ format, I did fire it up at home and I was shocked at how much AUDIBLE (and low quality) bass it makes. Perhaps setting it up on grass and not a hardwood floor would mitigate some of that, but I bet it still makes a lot. Also, being American, I don't remember running it at less than war volume. Perhaps 1/4 or 1/2 power would reduce the wonky bass tones.
Would you kindly give a little more information about your cardioid setup? I need to do something similar since I'm pummeling our band with SPL well over 110dB from the subs, sometimes 118dB if we're playing a larger audience, which gets pretty wearing for a 4 hour gig. In addition, we'd like to be able to talk comfortably on stage, so somewhere in the 80dB to 90dB range, hopefully not over 96dB, is my target for sub woofers SPL on stage.
What frequency did you decide to use for spacing and delay? I'm sure if I was more knowledgeable I could calculate that since you mentioned 4ms delay. Have you tried an inverted configuration so that the speaker configuration might take up less real-estate? (Or other configurations?) Did you measure your distance from the front of the v-plate to the front of the v-plate? I don't think the measurement point really matters, but I don't know enough to be sure. Horns have some mystery to me because I don't really know where the sound "originates" from.
Most audiences we play like less than 96dB - that's where they naturally stand, about 25 feet from the stage. And that gives a 10-ish dB drop from 25' to 75' where they seem pretty comfortable. So a couple titans just loafing along is plenty, but as mentioned that hits the band at < 7 feet a real ear full. I'm thinking the solution is more subs, not for increased SPL, but to steer the waves away from the band.
mtglass wrote: ↑Fri Jul 25, 2025 9:22 am
Good day,
Would you kindly give a little more information about your cardioid setup? I need to do something similar since I'm pummeling our band with SPL well over 110dB from the subs, sometimes 118dB if we're playing a larger audience, which gets pretty wearing for a 4 hour gig. In addition, we'd like to be able to talk comfortably on stage, so somewhere in the 80dB to 90dB range, hopefully not over 96dB, is my target for sub woofers SPL on stage.
What frequency did you decide to use for spacing and delay? I'm sure if I was more knowledgeable I could calculate that since you mentioned 4ms delay. Have you tried an inverted configuration so that the speaker configuration might take up less real-estate? (Or other configurations?) Did you measure your distance from the front of the v-plate to the front of the v-plate? I don't think the measurement point really matters, but I don't know enough to be sure. Horns have some mystery to me because I don't really know where the sound "originates" from.
Most audiences we play like less than 96dB - that's where they naturally stand, about 25 feet from the stage. And that gives a 10-ish dB drop from 25' to 75' where they seem pretty comfortable. So a couple titans just loafing along is plenty, but as mentioned that hits the band at < 7 feet a real ear full. I'm thinking the solution is more subs, not for increased SPL, but to steer the waves away from the band.
Thank you in advance!
For the purposes of setting up a cardioid array, the mouth of the cab is the radiating plane. If you're already using a pair of Titans, try the following and report back how well it works for you.
Front and center of the stage, place them one in front of the other, upright or on their side doesn't matter, both mouths facing the audience, with a radiating plane to radiating plane spacing of 4 feet 6 inches. Running only the front sub, time align the subs to tops by simply playing a sinewave at the crossover frequency, listen and flip the subs polarity back and forth, leaving it in the configuration that is louder for the audience (Optionally, you can properly time align them with delay, but it's not super important that you do).
Now plug the rear (closer to the stage) sub in, apply about 4ms delay, and set the polarity opposite of the front sub.
Technically, the mouths of the subs don't have to be facing the same way. If you're short on space, you should be able to put them back to back as long as the mouth to mouth measurement is 4 feet 6 inches.
Give it a try. Should do you well.
Build in process - 2 WH6, one Alpha 6a loaded, one PRV Audio 6MB250-NDY loaded
Thank you Seth, very helpful. It looks like 4 1/2' front-to-front with a 4mS delay is centered about 63 Hz which works great because it's the kick drum mic that can't be high passed like vocal/instrument mics and likes to give boomy response with the "stage rumble" causing havoc instead of a crisp thump. The band standing 7' away gets at least 18dB of attenuation so that will drop our stage volume from the subs down to 100dB and usually into the 92dB range which wouldn't be an issue for 4 hours. I'll also mention that we are a 5 piece that lines up in a "W" with drums/bass in the back. That puts the drummer's kit in a null lobe that should give > 24dB attenuation.
This setup will take about 20V to produce the required SPL which is a pretty light load.
The diagram is Seth's recommendation, with the option to place the subs back-to-back, that looks just perfect.
I wish, I'm stuck in analog, and don't own gates. Someday. What I do currently is run the fader on the kick channel at it's max, and then adjust gain/sensitivity to get the amount of kick I want. At least that's the best way I could figure out to do it to limit feedback or return. It works pretty well. Thoughts?
Get a digital mixer that has built in compression and gating. There's no excuse for not having one, I got my first, a Yamaha Pro 01v in 1999. They're inexpensive used and beat the snot out of any analog board.
Bill Fitzmaurice wrote: ↑Sat Jul 26, 2025 1:15 pm
Get a digital mixer that has built in compression and gating. There's no excuse for not having one, I got my first, a Yamaha Pro 01v in 1999. They're inexpensive used and beat the snot out of any analog board.
+1
I'm a Presonus fan and user, but the Behringer Xairs are pretty danged cheap. And they work fine (just don't use the onboard wifi, get a router).
"A system with a few knobs set up by someone who knows what they are doing is always better than one with a lot of knobs set up by someone who doesn't."
