Live music venue

[Bruce Weldy]

If it turned out to have the best response in the room and you wanted to put them under the drum riser, there are tricks you can use to eliminate feedback into the kick drum microphone, depending on the mixer you're using.

Not a good idea. First, you are breaking the boundary rule - putting the subs within that 2-8 foot range from the back wall. Second, as a player - subs on stage are really annoying.....and of course, the feedback from the kick drum is really hard to overcome.

To test splitting the subs, it's pretty simple - play some music and slowly walk across the room. The drop in bass response will be very noticible if there is some cancellation going on. Personally, I'd just put the subs in front of the stage, laying down with the tops touching.

When you start putting subs all around the room, you might make it sound good in one area (great when doing it in your living room), but the balance will really suck for those sitting near a sub that is positioned away from the mains.

[Seth]

I want it to be understood that while I'm refuting and countering some of what Bruce has said, I hold him in the absolute highest regard and generally trust his experience beyond my own. It's not my intention to discredit Bruce in any way.

Not a good idea. First, you are breaking the boundary rule - putting the subs within that 2-8 foot range from the back wall.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to V-Plated and firing into the corner. It's the ultimate best boundary, as far as boundary rules go.

Second, as a player - subs on stage are really annoying...

Typically, I would completely agree. However, in a room this size, I don't think it would make much of a difference from the perspective of proximity. You do bring up a point that I didn't consider though... it would absolutely make a lot of sense to check the stage for hot and cold spots in each configuration too, and possibly choose a configuration or at least add value in the consideration of one configuration over another that put the stage in a null.

...and of course, the feedback from the kick drum is really hard to overcome.

If you high pass the kick drum mic at the same frequency as the sub crossover and use a side chain gated sine wave to fill in the bottom end of the kick, it's really hard to feedback what's been attenuated so deeply.

To test splitting the subs, it's pretty simple - play some music and slowly walk across the room. The drop in bass response will be very noticible if there is some cancellation going on. Personally, I'd just put the subs in front of the stage, laying down with the tops touching.

I completely agree and would absolutely test this location.

When you start putting subs all around the room, you might make it sound good in one area (great when doing it in your living room), but the balance will really suck for those sitting near a sub that is positioned away from the mains.

At roughly 16 x 45 feet, twice as long yet only two thirds the width of a two car garage in the US, the venue is about the same size as a living room and will likely, although not absolutely, benefit from split subs, IMO. In a space that size, I don't think someone could be far enough away from the mains yet so close to a sub that it would detrimentally ruin the balance. Although, finding out is the whole reason to test and see.

[Bruce Weldy]

I want it to be understood that while I'm refuting and countering some of what Bruce has said, I hold him in the absolute highest regard and generally trust his experience beyond my own. It's not my intention to discredit Bruce in any way.
Ha!...if it wasn't for being discredited on a daily basis, I'd get no human interaction at all.....then again, I'm married, so that might be part of it.

Not a good idea. First, you are breaking the boundary rule - putting the subs within that 2-8 foot range from the back wall.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I was referring to V-Plated and firing into the corner. It's the ultimate best boundary, as far as boundary rules go.
No way to get v-plated subs in the corner of that stage....tiny.

Second, as a player - subs on stage are really annoying...

Typically, I would completely agree. However, in a room this size, I don't think it would make much of a difference from the perspective of proximity.

Proximity is always an issue to some degree. The differnce from 15 feet in front of the stage and 30 feet is going to be 6db. The balance of the mains/subs is very important to the listening audience. With the subs and mains essentially on the same plane - the mix stays the same with just the volume decreasing as you move back. When you change that balance, you can really make what is a good mix at the mix position turn to crap in the back.....unless you're mixing at the back, then the front suffers.

...and of course, the feedback from the kick drum is really hard to overcome.

If you high pass the kick drum mic at the same frequency as the sub crossover and use a side chain gated sine wave to fill in the bottom end of the kick, it's really hard to feedback what's been attenuated so deeply.

Sounds great on paper, but there's really no time for all of that during soundcheck for a variety of bands coming through the venue. You want something that is stable, sounds good, and is ready to go every time....there's enough minefields to navigate with the musicians who can't remember to bring a spare cable for the one that's been having a problem for the last three gigs.

To test splitting the subs, it's pretty simple - play some music and slowly walk across the room. The drop in bass response will be very noticible if there is some cancellation going on. Personally, I'd just put the subs in front of the stage, laying down with the tops touching.

I completely agree and would absolutely test this location.

When you start putting subs all around the room, you might make it sound good in one area (great when doing it in your living room), but the balance will really suck for those sitting near a sub that is positioned away from the mains.

At roughly 16 x 45 feet, twice as long yet only two thirds the width of a two car garage in the US, the venue is about the same size as a living room and will likely, although not absolutely, benefit from spit subs, IMO. In a space that size, I don't think someone could be far enough away from the mains yet so close to a sub that it would detrimentally ruin the balance. Although, finding out is the whole reason to test and see.
See above.....but honestly, in a room this size, sub-coverage is the least of the problems. Just overcoming stage volumn, monitor wash, and the reflections off of the close walls will demand way more attention than getting too concerned with the sub placement. Put 'em in a spot that saves space and sounds good. ....there is no "perfect" in that environment

Seth, you can smoke me all day on some of the science and the math. I always take the practiacal approach and season it with some experience. I just want to make things work as well as possible in the shortest amount of time in a way that is repeatable.

There are guys that build race cars and guys that drive 'em. I'm a driver who can twist the wrenches enough to keep my ride moving.

[Seth]

...Put 'em in a spot that saves space and sounds good. ....there is no "perfect" in that environment

I totally agree

Seth, you can smoke me all day on some of the science and the math. I always take the practiacal approach and season it with some experience. I just want to make things work as well as possible in the shortest amount of time in a way that is repeatable.

There are guys that build race cars and guys that drive 'em. I'm a driver who can twist the wrenches enough to keep my ride moving.

That's really well put.


A note about the side chain gated sinewave method of eliminating feedback through a kick drum mic... once set-up, it's not really different from one band to the next. That channel just gets treated as an additional "mic" when setting and adjusting levels. I'm not advocating and suggesting it be used in this case, but if/when feedback through the kickdrum mic becomes an issue, it's an ace in the hole if you're working on a digital console. Like you said, feedback from the kickdrum is traditionally very hard to overcome. It works even better with subs on aux, where you don't have to high pass the kick mic. Just pull it out of the aux send altogether and substitute the gated oscillator signal instead. Completely eliminates the possibility of feedback through the subs. And yes... I'd rather avoid it to begin with during set up and cab placement. But, in a situation that happens occasionally, just a specialty tool in the bag to use when it's needed.

Also, corner loaded and V-plated T48's would have a 6'8" x 6'8" footprint. Larger than a 6' drum riser and smaller than an 8' drum riser. It would technically fit on a 10' x 16' stage and leave 9 feet of stage width for the rest of the band as well as a 3x7 foot strip in front. Admittedly tight. Question is whether that's too much real estate to take up, even though it's not much beyond the footprint a standard drum set with single floor tom requires. Not sure whether there would be enough floor for the throne in the corner though.

The mix balance deal with subs in different locations, my feeling is the whole room will be energized at roughly the same SPL in the bass frequencies, ignoring hot and cold spots. But, it's all part of testing and choosing the best mix of compromises. These guys setting up a single venue have a luxury most of us don't have, which is the opportunity to take the time to test different configurations. Where most of us show up, scan the room, make our best educated guess on placement, and just roll with however it turns out... good, bad, or ugly. And actually, even that is rare. Too many guys in the business have little to no clue that placement has anything to do with anything. Thinking speakers work like flood lights, they just sprinkle them about, placing and pointing them where they look good.

The opportunity to test many configurations in a venue is a real gift if you're committed to creating the best possible results. Educated intuition works well, computer simulations can be insightful, but neither are as good as testing firsthand.

[Camillo]

You guys are the best, so entertaining to see forum chats at it's best. Thank you guys!

If, and that is if, i try them under the drum riser, my plan was not corner loading since the riser might not not be high enough? Leaving no exit for the sound..
So i thought i'd use the riser like a v-plate more or less, running them forward but that might be totally wrong then.. the mouth of the v-plate would then be around two meters from the corner, diagonally so I guess no..

When the time fits, I'll try different. Is it possible to just run some pink noise and use live recording with the RTA in rew and walk around with the computer?
Also, do I need to use the titans for testing, or could i use a small home sub to get a perspective of how the room behaves, making it easy to move around and get examples that i then try with the titans..

I guess i'll leave the backfiring then, You are right Seth, i'm pleased with the sound already, just trying to make it better in a static way. It would have been a nice project for you two to handle, making a listening room that is wasted on the audience - and me.

Still haven't managed to start the project bc the 3d camera i was suppose to borrow to make a view is occupied now, and from spending to much time reading about crossover components

[Bruce Weldy]

If, and that is if, i try them under the drum riser, my plan was not corner loading since the riser might not not be high enough? Leaving no exit for the sound..

Subs onstage is a bad idea. Period. Besides being a feedback issue, it's really annoying to the players. There will be build-ups of certain frequencies on different spots on the stage. I've encountered this on outside stages and it's even worse indoors. Have you ever seen a big show with the FOH subs onstage behind the players? Of course not. Sure, subs are used for spot situations on touring stages, but not at a level for FOH.

Put 'em in front of the stage or off to the side of the stage, but keep 'em in front of the players.