Where should I go from here?

[Cory]

Hey guys, I've been lurking for a while and really love the community you guys have going on.

I recently got into audio and started off by buying what was recommended to me on reddit. I feel I may have been given some advice that wasn't really applicable to what I am looking to do but I ended up with the following system..

L/R - Jamo C 95 II
C/SR/SL- HTD Level 2s (older speakers)
2x Hsu Research VTF-3 MK5
-----------------
Denon x3500
MiniDSP 2x4 HD

To my untrained ear, this makes a pretty decent home theater setup. The issue is home theater is its secondary role. I host parties; this system is in an upstairs den and is one of the areas where people tend to hang out. The primary music genre is EDM/House.

Although I know it is an audiophile sacrilege I like running all speakers in a surround sound, matrix, or multi stereo mix to give the enveloping sensation. I listen to EDM, which the entire point of is discarding what the original artist intended it to sound like so I'm fine with it

Now to the issues.. I have tremendous low-end energy, and I don't have to vocabulary to explain this adequately, but it lacks that punch in the mids and highs that give the tingling sensation across your skin unless the volume is jacked. I tend to keep the volume at 80Db or lower.

Here is how my room is laid out currently. Eventually, I would like to add two overhead Atmos speakers.

For room treatment, I plan to build a broadband acoustic panel wall about 3 feet tall, on top of that half wall behind the TV to help some sound from escaping downstairs, and just to give a backdrop to the TV. I am also building bass traps all around the room. I plan to go a little crazy with them as I can't paint the walls and I have some creative ideas on how to build them to add some personality to the room. To keep the room from getting too dead I will probably use an FRK backing, on the front of the panels. I will probably end up with 15ish 2x4'x4" panels gapped 4" from the wall.

I was thinking the rear bookshelf speakers could work as overhead atmos speakers embedded in cloud panels, and the current LR could move to SR and SL duties while being replaced with DR200s or 250s but would really appreciate any advice you guys have as I'm fatiguing of buying things that arent working out.

[DaveMacKay]

Welcome to the forum.

Although my taste in music is different, I'll follow this thread with interest.

I am ignorant of the speakers that you are using, so that I can't comment on them. However, I can share my experience.

After many years of wanting some, I acquired a pair of Klipsch La Scalas. I use them for listening to music in stereo, not for multi-channel home theatre. I have a long (20') narrow (11') that presents a number of challenges; it's far from an ideal acoustic space.

Initially I was disappointed because there wasn't the "chest slam" that I was seeking. It took me a while --- and lots and lots of work with REW --- but I'm pretty satisfied with what I've ended up with. I added:

• 2 x floor-to-ceiling bass traps in diagonal corners

• 2 x THTLP subwoofers in (the other) diagonal corners

• MiniDSP 2x4HD

Even so, the "chest slam" isn't evident until the music gets to around 80-85 dB.

The bass traps helped to tame some of the room modes. One subwoofer was insufficient; it took 2 to get reasonable sound in my space. The MiniDSP was essential to dial everthing in.

If you haven't already ... get a calibrated microphone and start working with REW. It's not easy but you can work your way towards a result that you'll be happy with.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Chest slam doesn't occur at low levels, no matter what the gear. The reason you get it is because it's loud.

[Cory]

The sensation I am referring to is higher than normal chest slam, seems to be in the 500, and I've experienced it on PA systems that were around 80ish db. I think a lot of frequencies are just dying in this untreated room. But in any case, do you think the DR250s would be a good project for the LR speakers?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

Slam doesn't come from 500Hz. It comes from 50Hz. The PA systems where I've experienced it were at least 95dB. Take your breath away starts at 110dB. Are you using an 'A' weighted meter? They're NFG. DR250s in less than a good sized nightclub are massive overkill.

[Seth]

The sensation I am referring to is higher than normal chest slam, seems to be in the 500, and I've experienced it on PA systems that were around 80ish db. I think a lot of frequencies are just dying in this untreated room. But in any case, do you think the DR250s would be a good project for the LR speakers?

Hey Cory, I'm Seth :Handshake: Good to have you, welcome

Your solution is more likely to be found in setup and implementation strategies and I'm happy to hear you mention room treatments and other possible solutions beyond looking for your answer in new speakers. With the capabilities of DSP lately, it seems anything can sound good. Well, nearly anything. If a speaker is capable of reliably producing it's intended frequency range, it can usually be made to sound the way you want it to sound. I'd personally recommend you start there. If you haven't already, take some time and learn about REW. Get yourself set up to measure, graph, and document where your system response currently is. And also, on the electronics side of the equation, create DSP tunability in your system (I see you have the miniDSP 2x4 ). Armed with those 2 tools, you'll be able shape your system and create better results than ANY new/different speaker is likely to offer on their own. Add room treatments in there too and you're likely to be happy with the speakers you have now.

The problem you're experiencing could be (more than likely is) related to having all the speakers going at once. I know it may seem like you're enveloping yourself and your friends in sound. I can envision that too. But, the reality of it, and the reason it's not done in professionally rigged pro audio solutions is, it creates a lot of cancellations. It's the cancellations that may be killing the frequencies you're wanting and not hearing. The reason surround works in movies is all the speakers don't play the same thing at the same time. Consider that you may have to choose between implementing a 2 main speaker system or deal with and accept the cancellations that come along with music on surround sound.

If you just want a speaker building project... I'm all for it. No reasons needed. If you have your heart set on them, go ahead and do DR's. But, IMO they would be way too large, bulky, and visually obtrusive in that space... just by looking at that helpful little model you posted. Sure, it's completely subjective. But, that space needs something tall and slender. SLA or TLAH

[J_Dunavin]

Room question, what’s up with the space behind the tv and speakers?

[ACUA]

Stairs!

[Cory]

Room question, what’s up with the space behind the tv and speakers?

Stairs back there that I wasn't sure how to draw.

Hey Cory, I'm Seth :Handshake: Good to have you, welcome

Thank you, good to meet you Seth

Your solution is more likely to be found in setup and implementation strategies and I'm happy to hear you mention room treatments and other possible solutions beyond looking for your answer in new speakers. With the capabilities of DSP lately, it seems anything can sound good. Well, nearly anything. If a speaker is capable of reliably producing it's intended frequency range, it can usually be made to sound the way you want it to sound. I'd personally recommend you start there. If you haven't already, take some time and learn about REW. Get yourself set up to measure, graph, and document where your system response currently is. And also, on the electronics side of the equation, create DSP tunability in your system (I see you have the miniDSP 2x4 ). Armed with those 2 tools, you'll be able shape your system and create better results than ANY new/different speaker is likely to offer on their own. Add room treatments in there too and you're likely to be happy with the speakers you have now.

Yeah, I plan to add room treatments regardless, but I do need another pair of speakers, and if I am going to build a pair id like them to be my new primaries. I have a calibration mic and have gotten pretty familiar with REW. I had massive peaks at 60, massive nulls at 80, and then a fairly flat response until 1k which dipped a bit. That was with my room layout rotated 270 degrees (speakers on the long wall). After rearranging everything to the layout in the diagram I can hear substantial improvements but haven't run any new measurements yet as I am still getting it all set back up.

With the capabilities of DSP lately, it seems anything can sound good.

Doesn't DSP primarily benefit defined listening positions more so than the overall room? I will have no control over where people are in the room. I know even professional studios can't make response perfect throughout the room, but I'd like to do as good as I reasonably can

The problem you're experiencing could be (more than likely is) related to having all the speakers going at once.

I am sure it is contributing to some issues, as I can hear a definite loss in clarity, and I am sure the speakers being completely different isn't helping. But, it does improve envelopment substantially, especially in areas throughout the room

[Seth]

...I had massive peaks at 60, massive nulls at 80...

You might try the subwoofers in opposing corners and check for improvements too.

Doesn't DSP primarily benefit defined listening positions more so than the overall room? I will have no control over where people are in the room. I know even professional studios can't make response perfect throughout the room, but I'd like to do as good as I reasonably can

It depends what your goals are. You can tune your system for one listening position. You can also tune your system to optimize the best compromise throughout the room.

I am sure it is contributing to some issues, as I can hear a definite loss in clarity, and I am sure the speakers being completely different isn't helping. But, it does improve envelopment substantially, especially in areas throughout the room

Certainly, do whatever you feel like doing. There are things you can try to optimize your response. I'd recommend Tuning it in stereo first, and get that dialed in for best response throughout the room. Then add in the other speakers and note any changes in the graphs, new dips or boost's. At that point you can fiddle with notching out conflicting frequencies from the surrounds, adjusting highpass filters, polarity, delay, aiming, and positioning of the surrounds to get the best compromise solution. But, definitely start with a solid foundational tune on your main L/R prior to trying to tune the system with them all going.

SLA's would be a really good choice, of all the designs Bill has. One of the quicker/easier builds too.

[howiez]

Welcome aboard Cory! You'll find tons of help here, I learn more every post I make from all the wonderful people here.

I'm running a home theater/living room 22ft x 17ft (6.7m x 5.2m) laid out similar to your room, save for couch nearly against wall opposite of TV and sub on back wall/corner next to that couch. I have 6 generic in wall speakers with 6" woofers painted to match the room for WAF. I have a Klipsch center under the TV (hoping to build the BFM center Curve Array one day). And my sub is a BFM THT, my first intro to this forum. I don't have any MiniDSP yet, using an old Onkyo receiver with the Audyssey room correction built in. And I use a Dayton plate amp for the THT with DSP for low end. That is doing a decent enough job for my untrained ears. We don't watch too many movies at theater levels, since it's a family room. The THT makes the low end to make it sound better than most theaters near me. The generic in walls do OK, and the Klipsch is a great center for what we paid for it. Music wise, my kids played a little EDM while in high school, so occasionally there would be some raucous music in our house. Mostly I'm 80s rock or pop for the Mrs. I do change to 'all channel stereo" for those moments and it works nicely.

You mentioned DR250s at one point, I just built a pair of DR200's myself. They were originally 'just coz' but ended up being used for 2 family/friend weddings. Otherwise they are my garage stereo. Overkill? absolutely. Sound epic? Absolutely. I had them in my Living room for a few weeks playing with them and loved them in that space. But they really shine outdoors or in large spaces. I think Seth probably nailed it with the SLA's. An easier build and good for that kind of space. My next house will have them instead of in-walls.

My point, if you like the sound, it's good enough. Since you also have DSP, work with the group here and they'll get you dialed in. And I can't recommend enough, to build more BFM when you time and budget permits, you won't be disappointed.