Titan 39 Build

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

The E string on a 4 string bass has a fundamental frequency of 41.2 Hz.

True, but it's a moot point. Most of the power content in the first octave of electric bass lies in the second and third harmonics. No one ever complained about the low end of an Ampeg Fridge, and its F3 is 58Hz.

[Bruce Weldy]

For the record.....I'm not saying that Behringers are bad amps. Only that you can't trust the power ratings they publish. If I have to drive the input into the red to get the advertised output - I'm getting a bigger amp.

I had a friend bring me his high-end Behringer powered mixer. It was brand new and he complained that he could get more power out of his 25 year old Peavey XR600. So, I put it to the test.

The only way I could get the amp to produce the advertised output was to drive the mixer output into the hard red by pushing the master fader all the way up and doing the same with the channel that the test tone was running through......along with the gain on that channel way, way past where I'd ever be comfortable running it for a show.

So, it finally produced the voltage - but not in a way that anyone with a brain would ever actually utilize the product. What good is the power if you introduced all kinds of distortion along the way?

I videoed the test so I could show him.....maybe I can find those videos and post 'em.

[Bryan Cox]

I'm just thinking in terms of LIMFACS. My Behringer NX3000D will have a hard enough time reaching 50 VAC @ 50 Hz sine wave in the first place. I don't want to waste voltage reproducing frequencies that low. Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying it's a waste. But given my current set up I don't have the headroom to focus on those frequencies. One day, if I upgrade my amps I'll ensure I can reproduce those frequencies without breaking a sweat. But I'll probably only do that after I double my cab count. 40 Hz pulls significant juice and I don't want to go blowing drivers or running my amps on the verge of supercriticality.

Call me a Nancy, but I like to err on the side of caution when I can.

I really don't think that amp is going to be the lazy slouch some have made it out to be. (B R U C E (totally just a friendly tease I appreciate and value Bruce quite a bit ) )

I think you'll be blown away when you fire all 4 of those babies up together. Did you make a V plate?

I really don't think you'll be constantly bumping the limiter either. If you are, you need more cabs, not another fifty watts a box.

Also, measure your amps output voltage. It might actually be closer to 60.

I haven't made v-plates yet. That is on my to-do list. I know I can get an extra 6dB out of them with a v-plate. I do plane to place the T39s in a v plate config but without the plate. Of course this is just for the test. I've ordered to 1/4-20 hand knobs and I have some nice threaded inserts I'm gonna use. When this come in I'm making the v plates.

[Bryan Cox]

The E string on a 4 string bass has a fundamental frequency of 41.2 Hz.

True, but it's a moot point. Most of the power content in the first octave of electric bass lies in the second and third harmonics. No one ever complained about the low end of an Ampeg Fridge, and its F3 is 58Hz.

How do you have all these frequencies memorized? Is there an article out there somewhere I could learn all this from?

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

There are charts on line showing the frequency of the fundamental of every note, but they're fundamentally flawed, as they don't show the full bandwidth content of the note. A low E fundamental is 41Hz, but there's a lot more power content at the 2nd harmonic at 82Hz and the third harmonic at 123Hz, with significant content to at least 1kHz. It's a shame that more attention isn't paid to the harmonics, because they're 100% responsible for tone and timbre. If all you heard was fundamentals you wouldn't be able to tell one instrument from another, nor one person's voice from another.

[Seth]

How do you have all these frequencies memorized? Is there an article out there somewhere I could learn all this from?

Here's what I have memorized; the lowest fundamental of a 5 string is a little over 30Hz and 4 string is a little over 40Hz. Standard guitar is one octave above a 4 string bass, a little over 80Hz. Any more specificity than that or other instruments get a googling. And what everyone is saying about the harmonics is true.

Here's the site I grabbed the info from this time. I appreciate that it doesn't round to the nearest whole number. http://blog.sonicbids.com/eq-tips-for-e ... requencies

[Seth]

...A low E fundamental is 41Hz, but there's a lot more power content at the 2nd harmonic at 82Hz and the third harmonic at 123Hz, with significant content to at least 1kHz. It's a shame that more attention isn't paid to the harmonics, because they're 100% responsible for tone and timbre. If all you heard was fundamentals you wouldn't be able to tell one instrument from another, nor one person's voice from another.

I agree and I'm on the same page. However, if you have the capability of maintaining the integrity of the full harmonic signature, why would you not? I suppose it could depend on genre, but there's something to be said for bottom end energy and the visceral experience it brings to a performance.

Not to mention what sonic content a keyboard might be playing.

If he's limited at 50v, is there any reason Bryan shouldn't High Pass at 40Hz? Any reason, if he's limited at 55v?

[Bryan Cox]

Bill/Seth,

Thanks for the info. I found a chart and downloaded it. It confirmed frequency ranges I knew about and blew my mind with other ranges. Most surprising is how large a range a bass guitar covers.

[Bruce Weldy]

if you have the capability of maintaining the integrity of the full harmonic content, why would you not? I suppose it could depend on genre, but there's something to be said for bottom end energy and the visceral experience it brings to a performance.

Is there any reason Bryan shouldn't High Pass at 40Hz?

Why not? Because of all the low end rumble that's not music, but just mud. If you are just trying to make the building rattle like they do with some of the DJ stuff....knock yourself out. But, if you are doing live music, there is very little content below 50hz that's of value. It's hard to control those lower frequencies - especially in the size venues that most of us are working.

I set my high pass at 50hz for several years doing inside and outside shows. Biggest reason was protecting my drivers. Once I got up to 6 subs, I did drop it to 47.5 and then to 45hz.....but, there isn't a huge difference in the sound. High passing higher helps to tighten up the bottom end. What you think is low end punch is typically an octave over where you think it is.

We all have been led to believe that we are hearing that 41hz low E on the bass because we think that's what's coming out of the bass amp.....however, there's a reason that bass cab manufacturers don't ever include a frequency chart - that's because their cabs rarely go below 60hz with any authority at all.

As far as keys - I always high pass them at 100hz. You can still hear every note they play all the way down the keyboard, but it helps to keep it out of the way of the bass guitar and kick drum. In fact, the only channels that I allow below 100hz is the bass, kick, and sometimes the floor tom. Now that doesn't mean that there isn't content in the subs from other sources - it gets there because high pass filters have slope just like any other EQ filter. I have never had anyone come tell me there needs to be more bottom end in the system.

So, that's why Bryan shouldn't high pass at 40hz. Besides the fact that you don't need it for the performance, it helps to protect your drivers and gives you the option of giving them a little more juice without living on the bleeding edge all the time.

A few years ago, I was asked to come fix a venue in town. There was no high pass on the subs at all and they were getting complaints from the neighbors all the time. I set the high pass at 50hz and not only did the complaints stop, but the room sounded much better when the bass tightened up.

After you do this for a while, you realize that "just because you can, doesn't mean you should" should become the mantra for everyone in this business..... We should strive for making it sound the best it can - and that typically means compromise. Is it worth having that one drop note shake the whole building for 3 seconds if it means the rest of the mix sounds like crap all night? Some would say yes, I guess....but that's not what will keep butts in the chairs and build a following....for the band or for the engineer.

Of course, none of this intended for the T60 users whose intention is finding the brown note and trying to exploit it. My world is live sound. And doing the little things in setting up your system and EQing the room, then cleaning every channel with a high pass is why I have a good reputation for the sounds I get......not to be confused with my reputation for being a grumpy old sound man.

[Seth]

Bill/Seth,

Thanks for the info. I found a chart and downloaded it. It confirmed frequency ranges I knew about and blew my mind with other ranges. Most surprising is how large a range a bass guitar covers.

Here's a decent read you may enjoy too. Good relevant info.
https://www.puremix.net/blog/musical-instruments.html

[Seth]

Why not? Because of all the low end rumble that's not music, but just mud. If you are just trying to make the building rattle like they do with some of the DJ stuff....knock yourself out. But, if you are doing live music, there is very little content below 50hz that's of value. It's hard to control those lower frequencies - especially in the size venues that most of us are working...

Those are all very good points Bruce. Really shows the the benefit of having the experience you have. Great response.

Just goes to show, maybe there really is a practical market for a more compact 50Hz Titan.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

One thing it doesn't mention is that the dominance of the harmonics diminishes as you go higher in frequency. It has to do with the relationship with the scale length versus wavelength. You can hear this effect on electric bass by playing the same note on different strings. An E played on the 12th fret of the first string will sound different than that same E played on the second fret of the third string.

[Bryan Cox]

Thanks for the responses and education, gents. When I lived in Texas I used to run sound for country, red dirt, classic rock, blues, thrash, and death metal bands. I didn't use a DBX management system st that time. And I cut everything below 50 Hz on the mains and subs EQs. I knew there was content there but the kick and bass were always fighting for the frequencies. I found that this tightened up the overall sound, made that 63 Hz thump from the kick jump out, and gave room for the bass to breathe. The musicians always thought I had added more lows because the sound was huge. But all I did was cut out mud and give each instrument its own sonic space. I'm also a firm believer in a slight cut at the 250 - 315 hz range... But that's another discussion.

Seth, I would absolutely lower the HP to 40, or even 30 Hz if I was a DJ or if I ran sound for groups that did hip hop or electronic music. But as it is I am a close minded guitar player with a lack of respect for some kinds of music. So I arm myself to do the things I enjoy. Call me biased...

[Seth]

Sounds like you've got a handle on it already. I've only done a few gigs and have always high passed at 40. Haven't had any issues with a muddy mix, but I have all mics and instruments high passed as high as possible without noticeably changing the sound quality. And they've all been outdoors. I have zero experience mixing a band indoors and haven't had the opportunity to deal with indoor space issues yet.

Conversationally, I can't see clean representation of a bass guitars full frequency content creating mud. Doesn't the mud come from mixed content in the same sonic space? And, I guess venue attributes too.

Maybe just something I'll have to experience before I really get it.

[Bryan Cox]

Sounds like you've got a handle on it already. I've only done a few gigs and have always high passed at 40. Haven't had any issues with a muddy mix, but I have all mics and instruments high passed as high as possible without noticeably changing the sound quality. And they've all been outdoors. I have zero experience mixing a band indoors and haven't had the opportunity to deal with indoor space issues yet.

Conversationally, I can't see clean representation of a bass guitars full frequency content creating mud. Doesn't the mud come from mixed content in the same sonic space? And, I guess venue attributes too.

Maybe just something I'll have to experience before I really get it.

Indoors is a whole different ball game. There are loud amps, monitor mixes, and cramped spaces to contend with. Not to mention the tiny bars that just love to amplify the "mud" frequencies. Some of these issues are fixed by using in-ear monitors and low stage volume. But more times than not, the guitar player relies on screaming volume to get "that tone" from his amp. The drummer wants an insane amount of kick in his monitor. And the singer can't hear himself. The bass amp being so close to the kick (and mic) can be significant cause for low end feedback. And cutting below 50 Hz helps to clear the field a bit to you can hear more clearly.

Using Gates and filters helps with instrument bleed but it isn't a fix all. The trick is to give everything it's sonic character so they don't disappear in the mix. For me, the biggest struggle is getting the guitar player to add mids and cut lows. This separates the guitar and bass. But then you have to separate the kick and bass.

I like to give the kick a small bump at 63 Hz and another at somewhere between 3k - 5k Hz (for the attack). Then I let the bass fill in above 63 Hz but below the kick attack frequencies.

Just my method and I'm sure it could be picked apart. But it works for me.