Playing with Groups Advice

[doncolga]

Hey all,

How do you tactfully tell other musicians to change what they're playing or just stop all together without being perceived as offensive or that you're trying to boss everybody? Sometimes "why don't you try..." or "why don't we..." does not get the point across.

Thanks!

Donny

[Harley]

Well, if musicians aren't sensitive enough to know they're cluttering up the result, and get offended at being told so, then they're expendable IMO.

Subtle hints and treading softly has rarely worked well in my experience. Neither has brute force.

If it were me faced with your situation, I'd be politely but forcefully saying exactly what I meant. No pussy footing around.

"Guys, this isn't sounding great at all. It's far too cluttered. Fred, sit out this part and don't play at all. OK from the top..."

Having an H2 or similar recording device is helpful because you can play back their before and after clutter.

Happily I'm mostly with musicians whom never have to be told these things.

Good luck.

[Bruce Weldy]

Well, if musicians aren't sensitive enough to know they're cluttering up the result, and get offended at being told so, then they're expendable IMO.

Subtle hints and treading softly has rarely worked well in my experience. Neither has brute force.

If it were me faced with your situation, I'd be politely but forcefully saying exactly what I meant. No pussy footing around.

"Guys, this isn't sounding great at all. It's far too cluttered. Fred, sit out this part and don't play at all. OK from the top..."

Having an H2 or similar recording device is helpful because you can play back their before and after clutter.

Happily I'm mostly with musicians whom never have to be told these things.

Good luck.

Yep.

We often stop a song at practice and say, "let's try this". Sometimes it flies, sometimes it doesn't. But, everyone is professional enough and secure enough in their abilities to not see it as a slight, but rather trying to make the song better.

If you have to pussyfoot around someone because they get their feelings hurt, then it ain't worth the hassle - find someone else. If it's your gig and you are in charge, they should play what you want. But, you should always encourage them to speak up when they hear something different too....it might just be the perfect change.

[byacey]

Years ago, a good friend of mine and a fine musician shot me down in flames with some heavy criticism. Afterward he told me that any musician worth his salt has to develop a thick skin and push egotism aside in order to grow. It was a good lesson.

Another friend who is a world class jazz guitarist used to say "Less is more. If what you're playing doesn't enhance the music in any way, don't play."

I've noticed many less than stellar musicians only listen to what they are playing individually, rather than listening to the group sound as a whole. Because of this, they don't know how to fit into the group sound. Once they learn to listen, only then do they start learning how to communicate through the music.

[doncolga]

I've noticed many less than stellar musicians only listen to what they are playing individually, rather than listening to the group sound as a whole. Because of this, they don't know how to fit into the group sound. Once they learn to listen, only then do they start learning how to communicate through the music.

Listening and blending is certainly where it's at, along with the general idea of less being more. Hopefully I'll have more opportunities to develop this in a good way.

[biodad]

I would have to get paid 100 times my worth to baby sit. You're an excellent musician, probably a blessing to work with.
My vote, dump the chump.

[ripNdeb]

Years ago, a good friend of mine and a fine musician shot me down in flames with some heavy criticism. Afterward he told me that any musician worth his salt has to develop a thick skin and push egotism aside in order to grow. It was a good lesson.

Another friend who is a world class jazz guitarist used to say "Less is more. If what you're playing doesn't enhance the music in any way, don't play."

I've noticed many less than stellar musicians only listen to what they are playing individually, rather than listening to the group sound as a whole. Because of this, they don't know how to fit into the group sound. Once they learn to listen, only then do they start learning how to communicate through the music.

What a great post
I just left a band of very good friends and good enough musicians because they simply would not utilize the PA for our sound. I had to wear earplugs to play on stage with them. This was after playing at church where there is very little stage sound. I was spoiled.
I brought the gear and tried to explain the situation and ended up with the instrument faders OFF anyway. The drummer said "That's just the way I play; can't change that". arrghhh......see ya, I'm too old for this s###
I have more joy singing with my wife through the computer speakers than the torture of ringing ears and a headache at 8:00 in the morning the next day after a gig of backline BS.

[Gauss]

If there's a leader, I make suggestions to him. If there's not, I tell the person what I'm thinking. "Hey Johnny, what if we just had drums and guitar here, then ramp it up with keys and bass at the chorus?" "Dan, move that snare just in front of the beat, I love that. You're too loud. Either use the rods or ease up." We're friendly enough. In another group, my suggestions were heard but ignored. That group, while talented musically, imploded from personality problems after a lengthy investment in time.

Also, I pack musician's ear plugs, a pricey, but worthwhile expense, to help me enjoy music at the volume I choose.

[Grant Bunter]

Being assertive can mean not being tactful at times. But it doesn't mean you have to be horrible either lol.

If it's getting you down Donny, say so, and why, especially if you like playing with the guys you do.

Nothing is more valuable in any given song than the space needed to make individual parts lead to the sum of the whole.
Clutter is clutter.
I find this is often the case when working with other muso's with less experience, or those that seemingly never learnt anything from their years of playing.

And yes, in the end, if you can't resolve the issues, boot them, or move on yourself...

[byacey]

The drummer said "That's just the way I play; can't change that". arrghhh......see ya, I'm too old for this s###

I've heard drummers described as damaged people that go through life continually wanting to hit things. For some unknown reason they like to hang around with musicians.

[Grant Bunter]

The drummer said "That's just the way I play; can't change that". arrghhh......see ya, I'm too old for this s###

I've heard drummers described as damaged people that go through life continually wanting to hit things. For some unknown reason they like to hang around with musicians.

careful

Seriously, we're not all the same.
And, like anything, the lowest common denominator will tarnish the entire profession.

We're not all meatheads without skill or finesse. Some of us even have a brain, and use it at least once a day lol.
Personaly, I love being able to provide a solid basis for whoever I'm playing with at that time. That requires anything from perception and playing ability, to laying down a straight 4/4.

What that person should have said was not "That's just the way I play; can't change that", but "That's just the way I play; won't change that"...

[Bruce Weldy]

The drummer said "That's just the way I play; can't change that". arrghhh......see ya, I'm too old for this s###

I've heard drummers described as damaged people that go through life continually wanting to hit things. For some unknown reason they like to hang around with musicians.

I'm pretty blessed to have a drummer that is all about the sound out front. He will do whatever it takes to make the sound best for the audience. In fact, our whole band does - and it is an absolute delight.

[byacey]

These are truly professional musicians based on their attitude.

I'm blessed to have a great drummer in our group as well. He's professionally educated, can sight read charts if required, has a great sense of time and musical taste.

All the members in our group park the egos stage side when we're performing. Playing becomes fun and a collaborative effort with good attitudes..

[ripNdeb]

"That's just the way I play; won't change that"...

You're right Grant. That's pretty much what he said.

[Bruce Weldy]

Drum kits in small spaces are the best argument for electronic drums that there is.

My drummer had never played on rolands until he started using them in the studio for our practices. Didn't take long for him to admit that the sounds were better than acoustic and since he cares most about the sound in the PA, he was willing to give up a little feel to get the best out front.

He still like his acoustic cymbals, so when we are in bigger spaces, he uses those and we mic 'em. Our monthly gig at a beer garden is best suited for the e-cymbals, so he uses those.

It's all about being a pro and putting the audience's experience above your own. Then you do everything you can to get what you want to hear in your monitor or in-ears.

I'm not trying to push e-drums, but rather a notion that if your priorities are straight - you'll try or do whatever makes things the best for the audience, the band, the sound, and the overall experience that we all crave every time we count to 4 and start a gig.